Spain: silver 2-reales of Philip V, 1723-A, Madrid mint, with unknown counterstamp

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by lordmarcovan, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    Spain: silver 2-reales of Philip V, 1723-A, Madrid mint, with unknown counterstamp
    01-1723Spain2R-gradient.png

    Spain, 2 reales of Philip V, 1723-A. KM 296, Numista-6841.

    Madrid mint (crowned "M" mintmark). 26 mm, .903 silver.

    Obverse: crowned arms.

    Reverse: cross with castles and lions in angles, within octolobe.

    The coin is heavily worn with an old crease, but has an intriguing small counterstamp of unknown origin on the obverse (shield) side. This mark is an incuse scalloped rectangle with two unknown characters inside. (Perhaps two letters, or a crowned letter? It might be upside-down in my photos.)

    Ex-WNC Coins, Asheville, NC, USA, June 2019. Found in a small bulk silver lot along with some other well-worn old Spanish silver that I found intriguing.

    02-1723Spain2R-black.png

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    04-1723Spain2R-coinscape.png

    05-1723Spain2R-cs2.png

    06-1723Spain2R-obv.png

    07-1723Spain2R-rev.png
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 19, 2021
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  3. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    Entry Post

    Is this a contest? Because I would love that coin!
    IMG_20170506_091500_2187.jpg
    ;)
     
    paddyman98, Mar 19, 2021
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  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    Actually, that IS an eligible prize option in my giveaway. I should be doing the drawing for Giveaway #53 on 3/21/21. If it goes unchosen by this month's winner, well... it will be a prize option in next month's giveaway, too! :)
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 19, 2021
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  5. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    Yipeeee ! Love those Spanish coins !
     
    SensibleSal66, Mar 19, 2021
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  6. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    I got it for just a few bucks (essentially melt), since it and some other slick Spanish silver (and a decent piece or two!) were all in a small handful I bought around melt value, in my best friend's North Carolina coin shop.

    I'd love to solve the mystery of that counterstamp. That could potentially increase the value considerably. (Or not, but it's still interesting, regardless.)
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 19, 2021
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  7. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Looks like a bust to me.

    lm image.png
     
    Chris B, Mar 19, 2021
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  8. norantyki

    norantyki CoinMuncher

    It looks somewhat like the crowned G used during the British occupation of Guadeloupe... but none of the listed types in Gadoury match this...
     
    norantyki, Mar 19, 2021
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  9. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    Looks like an inkblot to me. I can't figure out what I'm seeing. ;)

    This exact thought crossed my mind as well (note I mentioned in my description that it could be a "crowned letter"). And that would be really cool. But I just can't parse out enough of the object(s) inside that mark to know.

    *shrugs*
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 19, 2021
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  10. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I can't get it out of my head now. All I see is Hercules :woot:o_O

    lm image 04.jpg
     
    Chris B, Mar 19, 2021
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  11. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    I see a griffon head or a chicken, every other time I look at it. LOL
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 19, 2021
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  12. serafino

    serafino Well-Known Member

    Were there any Spanish Philip V coins with his portrait on them ? He did have his portrait on some Naples and Sicilian coins.
     
    serafino, Mar 23, 2021
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  13. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    I’m pretty sure there were, but can’t recall any specific examples off the top of my head. Surely on the gold at least, I would think?
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 23, 2021
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  14. willieboyd2

    willieboyd2 First Class Poster

    Interesting coin!

    These silver coins were known as "pistareens" and circulated in the American colonies.

    The counterstamp could be from a silversmith indicating that the coin is "good".

    Here's one without a counterstamp:

    [​IMG]
    Spain two reales 1725 Madrid mint
    Silver, 23 mm, 5.12 gm

    :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
    willieboyd2, Mar 23, 2021
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  15. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    Luchtaine, one of the French members on CollecOnline, commented that he thinks the counterstamp could be Arabic, and said:
    I hadn’t considered that possibility.
     
    lordmarcovan, Mar 26, 2021
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  16. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Interesting countermark, lordmarcovan. It rings a faint bell - I used to be a very enthusiastic countermark collector. Although I never owned one like that, I do believe I saw some over the years. Sorry I can't be of any help in identifying it.

    Your post inspired me to photograph some of my Azores countermarks. These have been extensively counterfeited, so no guarantee of authenticity. These have been in my collection 20+ years, so they pre-date the current run of outrageous fakes, but I think the fakes were around in the 1960s. As I am no expert, I am sure some of mine are fakes, perhaps the two posted below (although I am fairly confident the host coins are geniune).

    The genuine "crowned G.P" countermark was applied by Portuguese authorities in the Azores in 1887 in an effort to bring monetary order to the wide variety of foreign coins circulating in the islands at that time. Since sailing ships from all over stopped there on the Atlantic voyages, lots of coins wound up there from all over.

    The Spanish mint 1 and 2 reales ("pistareens") seem to be the most common host coin for these - in circulation for over a 100 years in some cases, these were lower-quality silver than Spanish Colonial small silver of the same vintage, so they stayed in circulation (Gresham's Law strikes again)>

    Philip V of 1721:

    Azores CM - Crown GP Spain 1721 2 reales (0).jpg


    A somewhat scarce King Luis type, 1724:

    Azores CM - Crown GP Spain 1724 2 reales LOUIS (0).jpg
     
    Marsyas Mike, Mar 28, 2021
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