Artifical toning, forum members, and PCGS slabs.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Leadfoot, Sep 9, 2009.

  1. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Without any scientific methods of distinguishing AT from NT, I would hope that any toning would become buyer's decision rather than assuming any NGC, PCGS,ANAC,ICG slab containing a toned coin is NT and thus worth more. Reminds me of the "Grape War", when Chavez's labor union pushed "union grapes" rather than non-union picked grapes. If the grape was handed to you , you didn't know if it was really picked by a union worker, or not. The grape looked the same, tasted the same,and was genetically the same. The only difference was the price if the plastic wrap said "Union picked" and if it made you feel good to support the union or not.

    I know it is heretical, but I think it would be better in the long run if the big 4 TPG, added a line to their label, "Coin Color not Guaranteed", and interpret any replacement of a toned coin at the value of the coin itself rather than added coin color value. Let people pay more for toned coins if they like it ( I do) with the idea the added value is in their perception, and like buying Blue Bunny ice cream rather than ColdStone.

    Maybe some day we will have signed toners ~"Toned by HottingToner", after all, urban grafitti had a negative start and now has magazines,contests, and is considered "art" in some cities.

    Jim
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    I think it's a shame what these scum are doing to collecting , and calling them doctors is part of the problem . Doctors are people to look up to and respect , these anything for a dollar deadbeats are on the same par as counterfeiters , just think of all the coins that are ruined by wannabes who look up to these people . And if you admire their work and spread the notion that these people should be respected you're part of the problem .These people should be shunned for doctoring coins for resale or selling doctored coins knowingly . When the market gets flooded with these coins and people are scared away from buying beautiful NT coins you can always comfort yourself with the knowledge that you didn't care to know if you could'nt tell the difference.
    rzage
     
  4. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Jim , that sounds like the best solution yet , "Coin Color Not Guaranteed "
    That way the color is moot and not condoned by the tpgs .
    rzage:thumb:
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Rusty the problem is that the market has been flodded with them for years now. And we still can't tell because there is no way to tell.

    So about all collectors can do is buy what they are personally satisified with. And that to me is the same as saying - does it matter ?
     
  6. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    I think this is why we have toned coins that might be AT but are considered "market acceptable." Many toned collectors seem to be searching for coins with similar characteristics that satisfy them. Thus, a niche has developed with desirable color patterns. Even if these some of coins are suspect, they are being slabbed because they appear close to NT and are attractive and thus "market acceptable."
     
  7. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    I have nothing against people buying what they like and are happy with , I'd love to buy a beautiful rainbow toned Morgan , it just seems that we glorify these doctors too much . Then younger collectors who start to admire them want to be like them ruin many good coins in their hopes to get these beautiful colors . And if we're flooded with AT coins now I hate to see how bad it'll be in another ten years . As to whether it matters , I'll leave that up to each individual to make up their own minds .
    rzage:D
     
  8. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    As a general rule, at least, I don't think ethical people glorify coin doctors at all.
     
  9. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    However, if one removes intent from the equation and only focuses on the end-result, that is certainly a possible side-effect. ;)
     
  10. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Another problem I see as the tpgs slab these market acceptable coins , the average collector trusts and thinks they can tell the difference , I know I did until joining this site and learning quite a bit about our great hobby , so I like Jims, "Desert Gems" idea about the tpgs stating they can't or won't guarantee the color .
    rzage
     
  11. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    That's a great question, Doug. Truth be known, I hadn't even considered it. That's because I still can't define AT and NT, to begin with. Supposing I could define the terms, though...just pretending. In that case, I think I would give the toning the presumption of innocence, and require one to be pretty darn sure, to defeat that. FWIW...
     
  12. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Mike,

    I understand your position, but intent is impossible to prove simply based upon viewing a coin. I think that was Eddie's point as well. When the TPG's grade a toned coin, they can't prove intent and usually they have no information about the history of the coin. They simply view the coin and make their determination. FWIW, I believe they have 4 catergories regarding toned coins. Two that will body bag and two that get graded. Here are the categories

    NT--------------------Natural Toning
    QT MA----------------Questionable Toning Market Acceptable
    QT NA----------------Questionable Toning Not Acceptable
    AT--------------------Artificial Toning

    If you put them on a scale it might look something like this:

    AT--------------------QT NA--------------------QT MA--------------------NT

    Your theory is that if we ignore intent that it opens the door for the coin doctors to (a) decieve collectors and (b) decrease the value of existing NT coins. I believe that both of these factors hinge upon the performance of the TPG's with respect to grading toned coins. Most if not every toned coin collector I have spoken to believes that at present the TPG's do very good job limiting the number of AT coins that get slabbed even with the use of the market acceptable practice. This confidence in the TPG's to ensure NT coins with an acceptable % of AT coins along with consumer demand is what sustains current values. Furthermore, I believe that consumer demand is directly related to the performance of the TPG's.

    The real question to me is whether or not the TPG's can sustain the confidence level that they have achieved until this point. If they can, the toned coin market is relatively safe. If they can't, there will be a severe detrimental impact on the market.

    The recent events regarding AT coins is very important. I understand why those involved believe that public information about these events is the best way to handle the situation, but I disagree. Personally, I think it creates an irrational fear that will lead to an erosion of the confidence in the TPG's ability to separate NT from AT. I think the whistle blowers would have been much better off presenting their case to the TPG's behind the scenes without causing mass hysteria on the coin forums.

    If the coin doctors are really getting that much better and consistent at their trade, it is vital that the TPG's recognize and react to this. Basically what this would mean for our scale is a change from this:

    AT--------------------QT NA--------------------QT MA--------------------NT

    to this:

    AT---------------------------QT NA--------------------QT MA-------------NT


    It has always been my understanding this it is widely accepted that a certain number of NT coins and their colors are undeniably natural. If we consider this percentage fixed, the area that will suffer is the market acceptable coins. As the coin doctors get better, the TPG's will be forced to reduce the number of market acceptable coins they slab in order to maintain consumer confidence levels. Under certain circumstances where QT MA range becomes very small and consumer confidence is not affected, the prices and values of toned coins could actually rise due to a shortage of new material in the market. I don't expect this to happen, but I don't rule it out either.

    In conclusion, I think the whole problem would disappear if everyone adopted Doug's rationale that if you can't tell then it doesn't really matter as long as the coin has eye appeal. Since getting everyone to adopt that rationale is unrealistic and it is impossible to determine intent, the only option we have left is the confidence in the TPG's to week out an acceptable level of the AT coins.

    Paul
     
  13. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    OK, Mike, that's better. I'll tell you what really got me in that former reply, though. It was your suggestion that my position condones deception. That got me like a knife. Let me just very quickly take a little time, here, and see if I can't straighten you out on that, then I have to go...

    Do you recall when blast white coins were the craze? The coin doctors saw the money in it, and they went straight to work. And now there are doctored blast white Morgan Dollars, among other silver coins, in TPG slabs, considered "market acceptable," and that nobody cares one, single iota about. We also all know why. Nobody can tell. The TPGs can't even tell. Unless, that is to say, it was a terrible, terrible dipping job (a.k.a., dipping malpractice :D).

    Now, let's see if we can add two and two, here. Toning, not blast white, is now the craze. Now, the money is in toning. And, lo and behold, the coin doctors are back at work. As a matter of fact, I'll go as far as to suggest, there are probably more coins out there than most of us would care to acknowledge that have doctored toning (through dipping, gassing, cooking, perhaps only God knows what else), but that, nonetheless, are in TPG slabs, and considered "market acceptable"...as we speak.

    Finally, just a little on this "purist standard," specifically, you, and some of the other prominent members, here (Mark Feld, for sure; Lehigh, to some extent) have gone on the line on, and have been advocating. Apply that same standard to blast white coins. You know that a lot of those coins have been doctored to achieve that blast white effect. Tell us, if you will, what's the difference between that deception, and this deception? Are the coins not both doctored? Have the coins not both been manipulated, worked, and, for the same, exact purpose, to deceive the marketplace? Apply your same, purist standards to dipped, blast white coins. Then, understand, nobody, here, is condoning that practice. All some of us rather have been trying to get across is, unless it's spray paint, i.e., a terrible, terrible toning job (oh, what the hell...toning malpractice :D), there's no way to tell, and there's nothing anybody can do about that. So, don't lose any sleep over it.

    PS: Honestly, I have to catch a plane in a few hours. Don't know what else I can say, though, too. Look, take care... :)
     
  14. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    A few comments in reply to the above part of your previous post...

    1) A number of people do care about "market acceptable" blast white coins and avoid them.

    2) In many instances, some people can tell if a coin has been dipped, even if it was not a "terrible dipping job".

    3) One very important difference between the "deception" of a dipped coin vs. the "deception" of an AT one, is that the dipping often uncovers flaws that might not otherwise be apparent, while the artificial toning hides them. Yes, technically, dipping and artificially toning coins are both forms of doctoring. But they are entirely different forms of "deception". And I, for one, sure don't think they should be lumped together and treated identically.

    Edited to add:

    I also believe the talk about the current toning "craze" is widely exaggerated. A lot of us have paid varying degrees of premiums for toning for MANY years. It just wasn't so apparent/widely known before the internet and easy-to-find auction prices realized made it so.
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yup, those that like orignal skin.

    I was gonna say that anybody can, then I realized that your comment is accurate. It would have to be - anybody with any common sense can.

    I agree. However, it is worth noting that dipping coins is a practice that is widely accpeted and has been for decades.

    That said, I don't know of anyone who approves of artificially toning coins.



    I would also agree that there have long been fans of toned coins. But Mark, to even think that the numbers of toned coin fans have not increased exponentially in just the past 7 or 8 years is completely unrealistic in my opinion.
     
  16. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Waiting for the limo; have to leave the replies at this, guys, then log off...

    Dipping in something as benign as acetone can uncover flaws. When that happens, the dipping backfires. Those dips, when left that way, untreated, come back in the body bags. In any event, when they don’t, they decrease the eye appeal and hence value of the coin, to the degree of said flaws. They, rather, alert the market, than deceive it. The dips that get slabbed and are considered “market acceptable” are rather the ones that increase the eye appeal and hence value of the coin. That’s where that deception is. Toning will disguise a coin’s flaws, for sure, to some degree, but, when done by artifice, its sole purpose is exactly the same purpose as dipping: namely, to increase the eye appeal and hence value of the coin. Just as deceptive, therefore, as I see it...

    Then I trust you’re saying the major TPGs who have slabbed these dipped coins and continue to slab them as well as the market that accepted and continues to accept them don’t have any common sense. I suppose I can agree with that, in a way. ;)
     
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I was gonna say that anybody can, then I realized that your comment is accurate. It would have to be - anybody with any common sense can.[/QUOTE]


    Not at all. I think there are plenty of folks who know the coins were dipped - they either prefer it or just don't care. It's the ones who don't know who don't have any common sense. Or else they are completely unfamiliar with the nature of coins.
     
  18. Mark Feld

    Mark Feld Rare coin dealer

    Whether the dipping results in body bags or not and/or decreased eye-appeal or not, you can at least see the coin for what it is, flaws and all. The same can't be said for adding toning or other substances to the surfaces of a coin and in the process, hiding flaws. If you want to equate those two things, be my guest. But to me and many others, the two different types of "deception" that you refer to are markedly different.

    I neither said nor implied that the grading companies, in slabbing dipped coins, don't have common sense. It simply means that they find such dipping acceptable. So they, too, draw a distinction between doctoring in the form of dipping, vs. doctoring in the form of artificially toning coins.
     
  19. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    I can't equate the two at all AT is only to decieve . Dipping is trying to make the coin closer to what it once was . Dipping should only be used as a last resort to those ugly splotchy toned coins that will sell at a discount , as for increasing the value of a dipped coin it might go up a little but nothing like 5,6 or even 12 times bid prices that some AT coins bring . OK now you can flame me .
    rzage:D
     
  20. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    One lasy thought about equating dipping with AT , Dipping can't make a coin rarer , but the AT we're talking about makes even a comman date coin rare , because the toning (NT) we're talking about is quite rare .
    rzage
     
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well, actually there have been occasions when exactly that has happened.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page