Artifical toning, forum members, and PCGS slabs.

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Doug, you seem to be talking about intentional toning vs. unintentional toning,but not AT vs. NT. And I still don't think intent (at least not alone) distinguishes AT from NT. For example....

One collector puts his coins in an album that unknown to him, contains sulfur, and places it in his deposit box, without any thought, knowledge or expectation that his coins will tone.

Another collector does the same, but with the thought/knowledge/expectation that his coins will tone.

In each case, the toning is what I would call natural, but if you want to disagree and say it not natural, that's OK. However, whatever it is, it's the same, regardless of the knowledge or INTENT of the collector.

I believe that your comments about Sunnywood are off base and unfair.To my knowledge, he buys his coins in slabs and in many cases with old time pedigrees, such as Elaisberg. I have known him for approximately 10 years, seen many of his coins and, more importantly, he is not one of the toners and braggers you made reference to.

 

Give me a brake Doug /GDJMSP is the fairest of all the member

 

Do you need a "brake" for your car?

Since you know nothing about the person Doug and I are discussing, why don't you butt out. Or, would you prefer to libel another person due to lack of knowledge and carelessness/sloppiness on your part, which you try to excuse by saying it's your opinion?

 

I have but one thing to say.you think you know everything and U don't!!

 

I know that there are a lot of things I don't know. And as a rule, I generally keep my mouth shut when I don't know about something. Why not give it a try?

 

After read your rants I need to say what said.Do not dog Doug he is the fairest member we have
The End!

 

I thought you had "but one thing to say"?

I didn't "dog" Doug. I pointed out that I thought he was being unfair to someone. I know it wasn't intentional and he might disagree with my opinion - but he can certainly stand up for himself.

And it's incredibly hypocritical of you to tell anyone not to "dog" someone else. You, who libeled someone, and wouldn't even be man enough to apologize after it was pointed out to you that you were talking about someone else who had the same name.

 

Ultimately it is all in the eye of the beholder and buyer. Widgets will sell
despite the facts, analysis, and wisdom of the informed. Let's see how
many times I have spent money unnecessarily ................................!

 

The people who butt out others are the ones who have the least knowledge in my opinion. Sometimes I think an "Anger Management" section for this ignorant people should be made here at CT forum...LOL .Doug is a very truthful person and is something I like about him. I also agree with him because he as many of us read all this stuff about toning.

Going back to the TCCS crap. Someones coins were brought out as being AT right. Some of the people that called them AT call other coins in past threads NT with very similar toning, color etc...So if you are going to judge someone because they are doing a job or because you don't like them, you should not act like you know it all and stay shut instead of trying to be the "professional" when in fact you over state your knowledge.

 

Doug, I think everyone has trouble drawing the line between NT and AT, hence all of the discussions and debates. And I don't think there will ever be a definition that almost everyone will agree on.

I think you can have unintentional AT (such as leaving your box of coins in your car, in a hot/humid environment for a year), though examples of intentional AT would dwarf them.

In your two examples above, those methods are not intended for customary storage and preservation of coins. So I would call them AT.

I apparently misread your comment about Sunnywood as being tied in to those who tone coins and brag about it - I was thrown off by your preface, which was "And as for what Sunnywood, or anybody else says about - "
Thanks for the clarification.

 

You should play the devil's advocate more often, you might learn something.

FWIW, it's utterly ridiculous to hang the distinction on the mechanism behind the toning. I thought of a coin exposed to the natural, desert sun. Your example is just as apt.

Want a tip? Forgive me if I said it before, like probably a thousand times. Well, maybe not that much. But, buy what you like, what appeals to your tastes, and, what you believe, from your experience, will be considered "market acceptable" by the TPGs. Don't buy anything you think is on the fringes. Or, if you must, understand, to that extent, you're increasing your risk. And, just make sure it ain't spray paint.

 

In case your post was aimed at me, you misunderstood at least part of it. I agree that Doug is a very truthful person and he tells it like he sees it.

But I don't know what you meant about judging someone for "doing a job"? And in my comments about Sunnywood, what knowledge did I overstate? Are you one of the persons from the TCCS forum who was (unintentionally) selling a number of coins that are thought by some to be AT?

 

Just a little detail. You can define a forgery and an original. :hammer:

 

And I can define natural and artificial toning.

 

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

If I intentionally store my coins in a holder I KNOW will cause it to tone in a certain way and far faster than it would ever tone if left...say...in a drawer where it is hot and humid sometimes. THAT is natural even though I am only using the holder to create this toning? It is natural because this is a customary device for holding coins.

But if I store my coin on a heater or in some other way which will also tone the coin much faster than, again, leaving it in a drawer where it can be hot and humid. THAT is artificial? Its not deemed NT because its being stored some way that is not 'intended for customary storage and preservation of coins' ? Even though in both cases the person is purposefully looking to tone a coin quickly?

Here I always thought that the REAL NT coins were coins that got that way because of unintentional effects on a coin that found itself in such 'non customary' storage like coins lost in an attic or in heating ducts, below the stove, or left in a drawer in a hot house for 60 years, etc...

So all I need do is buy myself a holder that I know will cause this and churn out Naturally Toned coins and sell them for a premium and that's okay in the eyes of collectors?

What differentiates NT and AT is if it is stored in a manner that is traditionally accepted? So a coin that was found in an attic or one that fell behind a heating vent isn't NT? Or if I kept it wrapped in a sock in my sock drawer in a hot closet for 40 years, it isn't NT because a sock isn't a traditional storage method?

This is all very interesting Then there is the herculean task of figuring out which coins fit into which category...

 

Each of your two examples below would be AT in my book. But I have no doubt that many others would disagree. That's half the fun AND frustration.

And keep in mind, that many coins, which, if their history were known, people would consider NT, might look AT. Likewise, many others which, if their history were known, people would consider AT, might look NT.


1: "If I intentionally store my coins in a holder I KNOW will cause it to tone in a certain way and far faster than it would ever tone if left...say...in a drawer where it is hot and humid sometimes."

2: "But if I store my coin on a heater or in some other way which will also tone the coin much faster than, again, leaving it in a drawer where it can be hot and humid."

 

Artificially toned coins are those that are stored or altered with the intent of changing their appearance and/or increasing their value.

Naturally toned coins are those that are stored in commonly-accepted numismatic fashion with the intent of storing them and they are incidentally toned during that storage.

The point of my response, however, was not to define those terms but rather to point that the ability to define something has little to do with the issue at hand or the comparison between artificially/naturally toned coins and real/counterfeit artwork...Mike