Artifical toning, forum members, and PCGS slabs.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Leadfoot, Sep 9, 2009.

  1. Drusus

    Drusus Pecunia non olet

    I agree with you...I was referring to what I would call more 'normal' conditions which I realize is very subjective...not necessarily ideal for toning but not restrictive either...by normal I meant like the circulated coins I have that have simply sat in a drawer for over 60 years in a place like Houston Texas. I agree that there are variables but if one knows those variables at play, it will have predictable results for those variables....that just how it is when we talk about elements and how they react....

    I would say the lions share of cases, you take most silver (or copper) coins and do certain things to it, it will have predictable results. I think the lions share of coins, unless certain factors or variables are present (either naturally or introduced by man on purpose) take a long time to achieve rainbow of the type I see here...I certainly have never had a coin achieve anything but the slightest of coloring in...say...30 years...and I would think where I live would be favorable for toning. Also for most of the time many of my coins had little protection from the environment....still most are just in 2x2 flips and not really protected from air.

    But I agree, there are always exceptions but accepting that those are exceptions, then looking at the massive number of super bright rainbow toned coins out there...AND the fact that anyone can create such a thing, many do and freely admit it and sell them...I personally think the lions share of these super rainbow toned coins were created. That's just a personal opinion, couldn't back it up with hard fact because I freely admit they all look roughly the same to me save for minor differences like in color patterns. Thus I have never and will never pay more for a coin with color. I wont buy a coin that looks like the ones posted here at all anyway...if it has a little light haze of color...thats okay...personal taste there.
     
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Yes, it does matter. To me at least.

    Let's use an example. You have to pictures hanging up in your living room. One is a fake and the other is an original Van Gogh. Which would you prefer? Which would you spend $1M on?

    Originality has value outside of our ability to distinguish the difference in the final product.
     
  4. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Spoken like someone who has no practical experience toning coins. Nothing could be further from the truth. While the way that a coin reacts to its environment is governed by the laws of chemistry and physics, the reality is that no two coins tone exactly the same even if exposed to a similar environment. Don't believe me? Try it yourself.
     
  5. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    And for those of you who think every type of NT toning can be produced artificially, please show me an AT coin with pull-back toning.
     
  6. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    And if the toned coin market is built upon the foundation of deception for profit, then it deserves to crash.

    I know that's not a message that you (or I) who have a lot of money invested in these types of coins wants to hear, but if telling the truth about the originality (or lack thereof) of coins results in the market in these coins crashing, so be it.

    IMO, Shane and others are 100% right in blowing the whistle on this, and had others had Shane's integrity, we wouldn't be in this position to begin with...Mike
     
  7. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Mike,

    With all due respect, you are overreacting. To say that "the toned coin market is built upon a foundation of deception" is a complete exaggeration. The number of slabbed NT coins outweighs the number of AT coins by an incredible amount. That is the foundation. The AT coins are a nuisance that we as collectors must deal with in much the same way that counterfeit coins are.

    I don't have a problem with telling the truth about the coins. However, what is the truth? Where is Shane's definitive proof that these coins are AT? As Doug has pointed out for years, you simply can't tell in many cases. IMO, Shane was unwise to broadcast his opinion creating widespread fear until he has his smoking gun. While it is just his opinion, he could have easily worked behind the scenes with the TPG's and his numerous toned coin contacts to either prove his theory or stop the coin doctors. Here is my question to you Mike. What if Shane is wrong? Who then did more damage to the toned coin market?

    I abhor the proliferation of AT material into the market as much as anyone else and recognize the risk it poses to the toned coin market. But to fight these doctors, we must be very smart. Telling the coin doctor that we know what he is doing is counter productive. The doctors don't use their own reputations, they sacrifice the reputations of others to move their material. This particular coin doctor will simply find a new avenue to proliferate his material while continuing to deny, deny, deny. Nothing will stop.

    Paul
     
  8. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Paul, Let's just say that Shane has not shown his hole cards yet. ;) ...Mike
     
  9. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Certainly less damage than the coin doctors. ;) However, based on what I've been made aware of, I think the likelihood of him being wrong in this case is very small. Time will tell.

    Using that logic, we shouldn't worry about outing well-made counterfeits either.

    So does that mean we should simply give up outing those who work in cahoots with the doctors?

    Of course not. We should continue to try and stay ahead of the coin doctors -- which is entirely why I posted this thread to this forum...to help educate others on what to look for and who to avoid.

    Respectfully...Mike
     
  10. tonedcoins

    tonedcoins New Member

    Geez!!! I agree with Lehigh96 all the way. I think that kryptonitecomics is a person who posts a lot and has knowledge on the toning "department", but posting too much might be getting to him. Unless you are a coin doctor yourself or you can be more specific on identifying the AT on the coins you show, then you shouldn't keep taking good people like Scott from TonedCoinTrader out in the Mud!

    Only because some people actually listen to what you write, doesn't make "only" your coins NT and everyone else AT. I can't believe you're even allowed to be a founding member of that place. When people like that act like they know everything, THAT IS WHEN YOU OPEN YOUR EYES AND GET OUT PEOPLE!

    I collect toned coins and sell some as well. If I even have a slight doubt on the coin, I will mention it. You just can't say for sure if a coin is AT or NT 100%. Maybe kryptonitecomics should be a PCGS grader with all his "expertise" and no back up.

    BTW, then only he would have certified toned coins! Everyone elses are possibly AT. Scott (TonedCoinTrader) is a very smart and honest person and should not have been brought out this way. If you don't like the coin don't buy it or return it! As simple as that.
     
  11. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Tonedcoin, Wouldn't you agree that you shouldn't judge Shane before all the information comes to light the same way you argue that we shouldn't judge Scott? The bottom line is that you (like most of us) are working with an incomplete understanding of the situation, and I suspect once all the information comes to light your opinion may change. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion and voicing it, let's try and withhold judgment until then. Respectfully...Mike
     
  12. Drusus

    Drusus Pecunia non olet

    You got me there, I have certainly never toned coins and never will, I guess I will leave that to people who do such things...(people like yourself I guess) I wouldn't waste my time destroying a coin like that. I would rather try to preserve them then to destroy them...better use of ones time IMO. I have, of course, seen several processes that people used to do it....and all came out roughly similar when the same process is used.

    I have...on the other hand, watched coins tone over decades of time and have notice...and I said this before...that aside from color patterns, they all have toned rather similarly when placed in similar conditions...going from no tone, to a light haze of tone...

    I have NEVER said they will tone to look EXACTLY alike, I am saying the EFFECT will be the same as long as all the variable are similar. Certainly each one will have different patterns, cover in a different way, etc...like a tie dye shirt, none will look EXACTLY the same...just similar if made with a similar process. I have never had a coin tone to rainbow bright candy cane gawd awful ugly like some of the coins here but I can safely assume if given another 60 to 120 years they would eventually start look like that.

    But you do make a good point...'the way a coin reacts to its environment is governed by the laws of chemistry'...and I would say that by knowing these laws and how something reacts to different variables, you can achieve results that will be roughly the same.

    and of course I have said several times, there are other factors that may be at work, but again...if you are aware of those factors, again...the results will be predictable....because as you say, its governed by the laws of chemistry.
     
  13. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Thank you for the clarification, Drusus. That makes much more sense now and I find myself agreeing with much of what you've written.

    However, you don't have to ruin coins to realize coins tone differently in the same conditions. Take two coins from a mint set, or bank/mint roll and store then in a taco bell napkin, envelope, or coin album. Put them away for a year, and take a look at them. I'll wager your results will be the same as my own -- the coins come out looking very different. While there will often be some similarities in the look of the coins, the results will vary dramatically.

    Why is this the case? Frankly, I'm not sure. My best guess is that toning, like many things governed roughly by physics/chemistry, are highly dependent on initial conditions (see Butterfly Effect) -- but the results don't lie and two coins stored exactly the same will often result in very different toning looks.
     
  14. Drusus

    Drusus Pecunia non olet

    fair enough leadfoot, we basically agree, sorry if I wasn't more clear.

    Lehigh, A person is certainly entitled to such an opinion but I just dont think there is any way you can definitively prove this in the same way people can definitively prove a coin is or isnt ancient through analysis of metal and even then, there are ways to cloud these test as well (striking fakes on ancient slugs). I certainly dont agree, but I will certainly admit I couldn't prove it...nor do I think you could prove your statement above is true...

    Which begs the question, IS there some kind of test one can do to prove AT or NT beyond doubt? Or is it completely left up to the judgment of people who claim to know the difference? I certainly havent seen anything mentioned.

    the few lightly tone coin I own are without doubt NT because they toned while in my (or my family members) possession. That still isn't proof to a buyer though.
     
  15. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I am not aware of one.

    Unless one has direct knowledge of either the coin being doctored or the whereabouts of the coin for, say, the past 30 years, then it comes down to opinion -- with some being more informed than others but all imperfectly subjective.
     
  16. tonedcoins

    tonedcoins New Member

    LOL... They are so sure because it's only a few. Fact they say because it's in their own crew but join and your saying is an opinion and your coin is probably AT.
     
  17. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    You are flat-out wrong in this case, and I suspect in time that information will come to light as to why. Until then, I guess you'll just have to trust me (or not), as I am not able to share all that I know...Mike
     
  18. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Mike,

    I think you missed my point. I don't advocate giving up the fight. Rather be smarter and more patient. Be like the narcotics officer who watches the drug dealers commit multiple felonies before busting them. Make sure your case is iron clad before pouncing. Pounce too early and all you get is the underlings, while the supplier gets away.

    It seems as though you have information that the rest of us do not. Does Shane have a smoking gun? Is he using the TCCS threads in order to trap the coin doctor?

    Paul
     
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Mike on principle I agree with you 100%, figure you knew that already. But my point is this - suppose the authenticator says that - even though both paintings are identical so one must obviously be a fake - he can't tell you which is which. So - does it matter ?

    That's the situation you have with these coins - nobody can say with certainty that one is AT and the other NT.


    Define for me, or even better, show me an example of, what you call pull-back toning.
     
  20. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Thanks, I understand you now...Mike

    p.s. PM sent.
     
  21. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Yes, to me it would.

    Perhaps with some/most toned coins. Not for the coins in question, and as discussed above the ability to differentiate doesn't change the fact that some prefer the original.

    [​IMG]

    Look below the date and stars. Notice the untoned areas? That's pull-back toning, and AFAIK it has never been duplicated artifically.
     
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