Artifical toning, forum members, and PCGS slabs.

For those that actually read the threads, you will see that my comments were not very welcomed by Shane or anybody else for that matter. I understand the zeal and mindset of the whistle blowers in these scenarios, but they are the ones that deliver the final blow to the market IMO.

Consider that many of these coins show toning patterns that are absolutely common. The reason for the AT accusation hinged upon the coins coming from the same source, at the same time, spanning different denominations, and date/mm that don't typically show that type of toning. While this seems like damning evidence of AT, and it might very well be true, the person that calls into question the authenticity of the toning then compromises the originality of any NT coin that was slabbed prior to the so called AT coins entrance in the market. If this was done behind closed doors, it would have been okay.

Now, everyone who reads these threads will be convinced that there is no way to determine NT from AT and will lose all confidence in the TPG's to do so as well. This will crush the toned coin market.

Unfortunately, my efforts to point this out in a subtle way fell on deaf ears. The most vocal accuser was more interested in being right than thinking about the consequences of his actions. I admit that it is counter intuitive that silence regarding AT discoveries is more beneficial to the market than proliferation of information, but that is how I see it. How many collectors will read these threads which are now on every major forum and stop collecting rainbow toned coins? The loss of these collectors will result in decreased demand which will suppress prices significantly.

As for my personal opinion regarding the authenticity of the toning of these coins, I will say this. The color progressions are correct in most cases, but as Mike pointed out, this is only and indicator of NT and not definitive proof. It is apparent that the coin doctors have stumbled upon a method to produce correct color progression. However, that is not the only indicator used to determine originality. Furthermore, the colors we are seeing are in saturation enhanced photographs. The coins may look very different in hand. The colors will most likely not be as vibrant as the photos and the overall appearance of the color on the coin is a significant factor in the NT vs AT debate. Most have heard the phrase about colors that float on the surface of the coin being AT. Most have no idea what that means and I don't know how to describe it in words. But I can say this, when you see an AT coin that shows this effect, it is rather obvious. Here is the best example I could find from my collection.



I will make no judgment about the originality of any of these coins until I have seen them in hand. Furthermore, I urge that everyone who reads these threads to keep an open mind and not make any premature conclusions regarding these coins or the toned coin market as a whole until they have all of the facts.

One of the determining factors about the originality of these coins hinged upon the fact that date/mm combinations that don't normally show rainbow toning showed up. Included in this group was the 1884-O Morgan Dollar. When I asked why this coin which is commonly found rainbow toned was included, I was given the explanation that it came from the same source as the other toned coins. I understand the explanation but don't agree with it at all. Each coin should stand on it's own merit. If you can look at a coin and determine it's originality, fine. If not, then the TPG's decide if the toning is market acceptable. If some AT coins get slabbed as a result, I am fine with that. The other alternative is for the TPG's to admit publicly that they don't know, can't tell, and ruin both their consumer confidence and the rainbow toned market together.

RANT OVER, Sorry!

 

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Yes, I know what you meant, but I feel that there are reasons, we just haven't the tools yet to discover them. But I blame that on my training, and I have learned not to discount the unexplainable. When I started exploring the coloration of gemstones, I found it far from simple. For instance since the color of a Ruby or Sapphire depend on energy level exchanges in the quantum range, a Ruby has no color in complete darkness ( lack of photons), but how could one tell as without light (photons), you can't see color ? Lots of these problems exist in science. Before quantum explanation of color, many disbelieved the theory of certain color changing gems such as Alexandrite and Diaspore ( now hyped as Zultanite), thinking it was just reflections of fluorescent vs incandescent light ( red-green) , but now it is known to be related to the energy levels of chemical compounds in the gems under the different light. It is now easy to find "Lab grown Alexandrite" which can change color better than the natural.

So do toned coins maintain their color in the dark?

Jim

 

I have read the threads in their entirety and am saddened by the entire ordeal. The part that really amazes me is that the dealers are the ones crying wolf the loudest to protect their investments and sales, while trying to defame some of the newer entrants into the market. While I do not know enough to pick a side, I do know that the entire ordeal will hurt all of the dealers and collectors of toned coins. I have no problem if they are trying to solve a problem, but I think they are going about it in a way that will harm themselves more than the people they are trying to harm.

 

Another interesting note is I got a gold coin back from PCGS saying questionable color. It sure looked gold to me but I needed to sell it and I was forced to send it to NCS and restored. Did not look all that different with the exception of the coin being lighter in color and the crust in the crevices was gone.

Not sure this is really related to this thread other than the fact that PCGS seems to think that Gold is now being artificially toned.

 

Lehigh, what do you think of these from the same seller?

Here's an 1881-S that got a MS-64 PL star designation! For 3 grand!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1881-s-NGC-MS64-PL-Star-Rainbow-Toned-Morgan-Dollar_W0QQitemZ360167853925QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_US_Individual?hash=item53dbad4f65&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14


Now look at this 1964-D Washington MS-64 slabbed by NGC as well. I bid on this but didn't win. I'm not so much concerned by the large, brightened, blown up image (although compare the shade of green in both blown up images.) But look at the full slab view and compare!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360176325153&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT

These two coins of different denominations from the same seller look to have a very similar green and purple pattern IMO. I would not bid on that quarter again. It's just too coincidental. These should be extremely rare to even be in existence, let alone in the hands of the same seller. And then the quarter should not sell that cheaply.

On top of that, the colors are so extreme. What causes this? My grandfather stored several 1921 Morgans in a cardboard box with tissue and he smoked. They were left in this state for decades and there isn't even a hint of colorful toning on any of them. Or the Peace dollars. Or all the paper wrapped silver quarters that were in there. No color whatsoever. Just dark, blackish looking coins.

I find it hard to believe that a dealer can find so many colorful coins, in all denominations, some supposedly worth 5 digits and be able to have enough supply to keep a business going. Where do they all come from? How does a small time dealer afford to have a $3k toned coin in their inventory?

Do you think the TPGs have been compromised? I mean, if these are AT, how could you tell besides the fact that one guy has both of them at the same time? How do you physically tell and can you really rely on NGC like we thought we could?

 

OH BOY! Look at this!

Ok guys. I just looked up that quarter from the ebay link I posted above. I looked it up on NGC's site.

When NGC had it, this quarter had NO color!!! Look at their pic. I know it's not the brightest pic and there appears to be some darker toning on the front but no color shows up at all. Just a bad picture? I blew it up and tried to see some color but I see nothing. Maybe it's just dark. I don't know.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2526981-008

 

Although still dark, at least some color does show up in NGC's photo of the Morgan:
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=1744017-001

That's probably pretty close to what it looks like in hand. Worth 3 thousand bucks?

Maybe the quarter was just a bad, dark pic. But I think these are still very suspect.

 

I don't know VAMs , so I don't buy them. I don't know AT/NT, so I don't buy them. My ignorance protects me.

 

My thought is that the large number of AT coins are coming from rather small number of manufacturers who have the equipment and the skill set to do AT convincingly. In my mind it takes sophisticated equipment and knowledge to do so at a high level. I am wondering if small branches of organized crime are the initiators. When they can buy high quality chinese copies, fake slabs, and AT them; their initial cost is peanuts compared to what they can go for on the marketplace.

Jim

 

First things first. This is not the same seller as the one in the TCCS thread. Richard (Greattoning) is a very good E-Bay seller of toned coins. I believe he juices his photos a tad, but no to an unreasonable level. That is to say, the photos still look like the coins. The seller in the TCCS forum is Nicetoning42107 and his name is Alex.

As for the coins. Nothing other than the price tag on the Morgan bothers me. I know PL Morgans are rare with monster color, but $3K is a lot of money for an MS64 common date Morgan.

Regarding the Washington Quarter, it seems you are concerned about the apparent differences in the color with respect to the photos. I am not 100% certain, but my educated guess is that different lighting is the cause of the difference. The blown up photo shows luster and was probably taken with two direct overhead lights positioned at 10 & 2. The lights would have hit the slab and caused a reflection but not over the coin. He then cropped the photo and cut out the reflection. In the slab photo, he couldn't capture the color and avoid reflection on the slab. Since the lights were probably impairing the label, he used diffused lighting to take the slab photo. This is what causes the colors to appear different and completely eliminates the appearance of luster. Here is an example of how diffused lighting can make the same coin look very, very different.




The colors of this Washington quarter don't bother me at all. I have a 1964-D Washington with almost the same color scheme. The toning is iridescent and very difficult to capture in a photo, but I think it will demonstrate my point.



I don't know the personal financial situation of this dealer or how much reserve capital he has. What I do know is that he has had a rainbow toned Gobrecht for sale for over two years in his inventory.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1836-PCGS-PR64-Original-Align-Rainbow-Toned-Gobrecht_W0QQitemZ230286281319QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_US_Individual?hash=item359e21ca67&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

I doubt a $3K coin is hurting his cash flow. His auctions consistently realize the highest prices of any toned coin dealer on E-Bay, bar none. My guess is that people line up to consign coins to him. In fact, if his photos were better, I would consign my coins to his auctions.

I don't think the TPG's are being fooled at a higher rate than they have been before. A certain percentage of AT coins have always gotten by the TPG's and that will always be the case. If you accept that as a fact and then judge the toning of each slabbed coin for yourself, you will have a much better shot at ensuring you purchase NT coins than if you rely completely on the TPG's. However, you could always take the position that I take: put the burden on the accuser to show indisputable proof that the coin is AT. If they can't, which they can't, then I will take the opinion of the TPG over them any day of the week.

 

I can't see the photo as you need to be logged in as a paying member of NGC, but I highly doubt the ability to tone only one side of a slabbed coin while it is in the slab. My guess is that NGC's photo is hiding the toning. Could you post their photo in this thread so we can see it?

 

Hey I went on that forum and read a bunch of that stuff and if it don't make you glad to be on CT then something is wrong with you. First of I just started back collecting after more than 20 years out of the hobby and I know that some of you are tired of all the questons I ask but none of you have complained and I have received a world of help from all who replied. I have seen those fancy rainbow colored coins and thought them all to be artificial because I had never seen one in person and had never seen one in a slab that I can remember until last week when I pulled a toned 1980 something penny out of a roll at the bank. it was pretty cool and I put it in a 2x2 because I wouldn't have in a set it just don't fit. I have thought about buying one of the silver tie died beauties off Ebay but couldn't for the life of me figure how a coin colored like that could be called MS or Proof when nothing comes out of the mint looking like that. Here I go showing my ignorance and opening myself up to public humiliation but realy shouldn't a mint state coin look like it came from the mint if it is a high grade piece? I don't see any differance in these and those painted up coins that they sell on TV. I know the coppers PennyLady post are real toned beauties but they don't look a bad acid trip from Woodstock. Hope that wasn't out of line with keep it clean part I do admire the integrity of this site and don't want to offend anyone and if I had I apologize. I am just glad you guys are not as cut throat and arrogant as what I was reading on the other board which by the way I will not return to. Sorry for being so long winded.
Thanks for all you have done to help me with this hobby Kent

 

Glad you found this thread I was about to post a link in your other thread to this one. And no humiliation should be involved - but no I do not think all MS coins should look like they just came from the mint. Take a 100 year old morgan, I would expect it to have some toning on it just from being out in the environment. Then thing about 200 year old coppers - I would expect most of those(not all) to be brown, very few RB's, and even fewer reds. All of that just from the age and environment. I am not an expert myself, but I agree on those rainbow coins - to me most of them do not look natural. I am not saying they are not NT, but they are not my cup of tea. I also agree that the pennyladies coins do not look the same - they look natural, but it could also be the copper versus the silver coins that helps subdue those rainbow colors. Just my opinion and not an expert on toned coins.

 

Ya think?

Don't count me in that bunch, I knew it before I read these threads. Unless it's spray paint, I can tell when it's that.

 

It probably matters to people who collect them as they are paying more money for coins, in the end, that are doctored...not cleaning, conserved...but truly doctored to take advantage of someone who is willing to pay more for them. they probably feel like they have been taken advantage of as they don't want coins that were doctored but natural...so it probably matter as much to them as a not getting a coin that was clean matters to some collectors even if they cant say for sure it was cleaned....if the suspect they wont buy or they will feel like someone slipped something by them, even if they can even say for sure it was but just suspect.

Here is my take and I am sure people might not agree. I also think that nobody can say for sure if a coin has been purposefully toned, just like I am sure that those people who claim up and down a cleaned coin can always be detected are wrong, they just THINK they can....or convince themselves they can to make themselves feel better...like the talk of the market consequences if people start to question peoples ability to spot natural from fake...thats no reason to pretend you can, the market will stand or fall but to pretend one can tell the difference just to keep it going is dishonest. This is the reason I would never PAY MORE for toned coins.

I have seen coins I know for certain were natural toned, that is, toned in about 60-70 years of sitting in a drawer and maybe another 150 where the coins where abouts are unknown. these coins were not toned when they came into my families possession, after many decades they show a light haze of color hardly visible...but under light at an angle the color is very apparent. These coins I KNOW were not treated. I have also had my own coins tone with a little color in my possession, again, decades produced a very light color toning.

It came to mind that out of thousands of coins that I own...only a small handful toned with any color and that was just a HINT of color after 60+ years. It came to mind that a coin sitting in a hot drawer with no protection in a humid envronment (houston) took 60+ years just to develop a very light haze of color...on just a few of the coins, not all. I decided then that rainbow toning takes quite a long time to develop naturally unless the coin is exposed to harsher conditions right for a more rapid toning.

Now I am not saying that this gawd awful tie dye look doesnt develop naturally...my opinion is, under normal conditions, sitting exposed in a drawer in a normal house, even in a place that is humid and hot...it would take some time still. I go on eBay and I look at peoples collections and there just seems to be an endless supply of brightly colored rainbow coins of all types...if you asked me to pick out the ones that were natural...I couldn't...but there are certainly people out there who freely admit they are creating these coins and distributing them in bulk. I would think, depending on the age of the coin, the natural toned coins would be the lightly toned coins for coins maybe 100 years on or less (from my experience it takes this long from a coin to develop light color toning...and the rainbow might become more and more pronounced as it goes along. Then you take into account those who WERE subjected to harsher conditions that WOULD cause a faster toning...like a coin found in an hot attic after 150 years...I would think this would be a smaller percentage of the whole...all the rest of those bright rainbow coins are faked....

Also, I think toning is a science...metal has certain properties and it react in a certain way...it is reproducible and certainly one can effect that process by speeding it up or slowing it down...but metal WILL react as it should...there is no surprises...if you introduce something new into the equation then certainly you might get a surprise...but you can tone a silver coin the same way every time and get the same results every time...as the properties will always remain the same and the reaction will always be the same...its the way of the natural world that metal has properties, metal reacts more or less depending on what it is exposed to...no shock or surprises...you want to speed up the process...there are ways...slow it down...again...there are ways...but unless something new is introduced or it is introduced in a new way...the results are completely predictable...I am sure more people here know how to produce a coin that looks like any of the toned coins shown here.

 

There is a way to tell many AT coins.

There is a way to tell many AT coins.

I AT'ed many common mint state coins at on time just to see what I could come up with and learned a lot - I never sold any of these coins without telling the buyer it was just "eye candy" and had been doctored by me.
If one is very careful you can come up with some coins with red, blue and yellow that could be considered attractive except for one thing.
One day I was looking across the table at a 20 pocket page of these coins laying flat. I was sort of looking across them laying flat there and they all appeared the same. They all had the same hue and appeared more grey than colored - it's as if the coins lost there vibrance if one is not looking staight down on them.
It may not work for these Morgans but it was a surprise to see the AT coins from that angle. Hold the coin up so you are looking across it at eye level laying flat and you will se what i mean.

 

You saw this coming a long time ago. And I'll tell you how I know that. I know it because that's when you convinced me of it...a long time ago. And you've been consistent on it ever since. And I'll even tell you how I know that. I'd have caught you had you been inconsistent.