Artifical toning, forum members, and PCGS slabs.

A very interesting discussion is taking place on the TCCS forums. Those interested in toned coins may want to take a look and judge for themselves:

What a difference a grading service makes.
http://www.tonedcoins.org/forums/view_topic.php?id=4017&forum_id=11

To the members of this board.
http://www.tonedcoins.org/forums/view_topic.php?id=4021&forum_id=11

The coin doctor speaks out.
http://www.tonedcoins.org/forums/view_topic.php?id=4024&forum_id=11








<< What's the Cliff Notes summary of all this? >>


Here a summary for those who don't want to wade through it: Two PCGS forum members, Nicetoning42107 and Tonedcointrader, (I believe at least one is a member here too) have been dealing in (allegedly) AT coins -- some of which are in PCGS slabs. Apparently, Tondecointrader was simply ignorant when he purchased the coins from Nicetoning42107. However, it appears that Nicetoning42107 knew what was going on and refuses to name the source.

 

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Mike ,So these are both AT Morgans , the bottom one would have fooled me .
rzage

 

Makes me glad I am not in that market. I have enough worries with fakes, cleaned, etc. Those wild colors may look nice, but not my cup of tea.

 

WARNING BLUNT OPINION TO FOLLOW: I think Tonedcointrader is a good guy but unfortunately a "wannabe" who wouldn't know an AT coin if it bit him in the nose, and Nicetoning is among the lowest forms of life who profit through knowingly deceiving others.

But my personal opinion matters about as much as anyone else's and I encourage each of you to draw your own conclusions...MIke

p.s. There is also much more than meets the eye and a lot of information being shared in non-public communications. Some of which I am privy to, and much of which I have not. My opinion was formed on that information and discussions with others who have a more intimate knowledge of the situation, but in the end some is hearsay, so consider the above FWIW.

 

You are not alone in that opinion -- and that's the point.

 

I'm glad I don't have to decide what's AT or NT as some are very tough.

If I had a question I would related to a color progression table that Sunnywood created on the PCGS forums. If that did not help I would ask him directly for help. There are only a handful of folks that I beleive have a true handle on AT vs NT and I wonder if PCGS or NGC are fully qualified. This might be why so many are ending up designated as questionable color these days.

 

Color progression is a fallacy that can only prove the negative (i.e. a coin that does not follow the natural progression is AT, but one that does isn't necessarily NT).

Said another way, there are plenty of AT coins (including those pictured above) that follow the "natural progression".

 

As an aside, I started a similar thread on the PCGS forums. One of the responses there was particularly poignant and bears repeating:

A main reason the market is flooded with AT coins is simple, supply and demand. When collectors/dealers use the TPGs as a crutch to verify what a colored coin looks like, the buyer begins to spend way too much money on coins that are not worth the money. So, if the buyer spends $75 on an MS64 colored morgan, no worries. But if the buyer spends $2000 on the same coin, the coin doctors would come out in force to supply the marketplace. It's like drugs and law enforcement. Limit the supply, the price goes up, the law tries to enforce, so more is supplied at higher prices, and the cycle continues.

Now that we see a marketplace flooded with questionable coins, the buyer is hesistant to purchase, NT or AT. Until the prices come down to a reasonable level, which has happened with many Morgan dollars, then the impetus for coin doctors will not wane.

TRUTH"

 

The coin doctors are getting very good at what they do , like the Chinese and their counterfiets , now there is one more thing we must learn how , to tell AT and NT apart , but I guess that's what makes numismatics so interesting and fun .
rzage

 

Wow! That is a lot of drama. I just spent over an hour reading through all 3 of those links. Thanks for posting.

It kind of makes you question everything now. I hate to see it. It's a shame that there has to be greedy scum bags out there trying to fool the TPG's. All it will end up doing is killing a legitimate market and then everybody's done.

If there's some doctor that can seriously AT Morgans that well and get them in slabs, the market will take a huge hit. That is big trouble.

 

Exactly why I never visit that site anymore. I used to go there a lot and read what I ended up knowing as just STUFF. After a while of that, it gets boring. Not even sure most of it's opinions. I suspect there are a lot of people there that read something somewhere and repeat, repeat, repeat, etc.

 

Which is why I would never pay a premium for a toned coin...AT and fake patina abound. I wont pay more for any type of corrosion (or coating) be it real or faked.

To be honest, I have a few toned coins but they are, without doubt, natural...and by that I mean they sat in a drawer for decades and came out with a very light sheen of color that is hardly noticeable unless one looks at the coin at the right angle...that's the kind of toning I like anyway...subdued...all coins I have knowledge of that toned in a natural way do not look like the coins above at all. I hate a gaudy rainbow toned coin...its just ugly. I have never understood the attraction to tie dye coins.

 

Please show me one.

Said another way, even mother nature is bound by the laws of optics/thin film interference....MIke

 

Mike, I haven't seen any either, because it would have to be a coin I have watched from bright white to a toned condition (NT) with a missing color step, and although I have the prior, I haven't seen the latter.

However, I think Doug has a point, because moisture and tone initiators, such as sulfur gases, etc., vary from place to place in the world, if a coin doesn't stay in the same spot, the proportion of toning activity could vary tremendously. It doesn't mean that the color progression would skip, it just might mean that a band could be extremely thin and not noticeable visually without strong magnification.

It is like tree growth rings. We know there has to be a ring for each growth year the tree was alive, but some bands due to lack of water or sunlight may be so thin they are only seen with a microscope, whereas others, in good years, can be measured with a ruler, they are so large.

But Doug, It was in 1934 that the French entomologist Magnan argued that, according to the known laws of physics, the bumblebee couldn't fly. It did take many years before high speed photography and torturing of bees ( making them fly in helium and carrying larger weights than normal) that they were able to see the variations that the bees can make in their wing arrangement to carry the weight. Before, no one could see the variation in the wings. So today scientists can explain how bumblebees can fly and even carry backpacks

Jim

 

A coin by any other than natural color is a waste. Just my 2 NT cents.

 

That is true if you clip thier wings. Granted it is cruel but still true. But like toning that would mean something interfered with Mother Nature to make that statement true.