Just wondering, why aren't the major TPGs competing with CAC?

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Yeah, that's kinda what I said I suspected, about three pages back; to wit:

I think that may be what it comes down to, though.

 

For "Jello" again, who never replied or apologized to Mr. Albanese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jello
CAC is a 4th party it just confirms the grade a TPG has grade the item.
In the 50+ years I have been collecting I do not need CAC.
Google John Albanese he has been no angel he been in court too many time in 80-90'sfor me

Since you didn't reply to my previous post, I did a Google search also. And the only reference I could find to the John Albanese being discussed in this thread having been in court was when he served as a government witness in a fraud case against a coin dealer. Unless you can show otherwise, your post was extremely careless, reckless and libelous. And you should retract it, as well as apologize. You should be a man about it and not hide or disappear.

 

Oh, what the hell, I’m feeling like a hall monitor, again...

I don’t hear Mr. Albanese asking for any reply or apology. All I rather hear is you, as if you’re his alter ego. Why don’t you just get off Jello’s back, and the issue will go away. Drop your personal crusade, get out there in the fresh air, you’ll feel better for it...

 

It's highly unlikely that Mr. Albanese is aware of the thread and I don't believe he posts here. That doesn't mean that he isn't owed an apology. Would your attitude be the same if you, a family member or friend had been libeled in that fashion? I seriously doubt it.

 

This was so funny, Doug, I actually laughed out loud all by myself here!

Perhaps this is off topic a bit, but after reading all of the back and forth here, one thing that I haven't seen discussed much is what you all know - grading is SUBJECTIVE and done by human beings, CAC, NGC & PCGS graders - they're all humans - and they all have their own idea, criteria, guidelines, scales, thoughts, eye appeal, etc. on what constitutes a particular grade - and everyone will never ever be able to completely agree every time. Even those who are extremely experience, like Albanese, disagree with others who are just as experienced.

So even if CAC stickers or declines to sticker a particular PCGS or NGC coin, or even say that PCGS and/or NGC certifies or declines to certify a particular coin - other than for authenticity purposes, isn't the bottom line here in this hobby/business of coins what YOU personally think of the coin, regardless of what your friend thinks, your dealer, a forum, or CAC or TPG thinks - you can have all the labels, crossovers, stickers, opinions, personal assurances, etc. - but the very bottom line in deciding to own a coin should be what YOU the potential owner thinks of that coin.

Sure, having a sticker or certification helps to sell a coin, but the buyer/potential owner should still personally evaluate the coin and accept or reject it based on his/her own criteria, desires, thoughts, experiences, etc.

I personally think too many people are putting way too much weight on who graded or approved of a particular coin. So those are my two cents, though they're probably only worth one cent!

 

Well said Penny Lady, it's all about what the individual, coin owner, or potential buyer thinks of the coin.

 

I am known to spout off without reading the entire thread here, so this time I did.

You folks arguing with Mark are going to lose. Back up a tad and listen. This man is one of very few in the industry who has both the dealer side of the table and the grader side covered.

You learn more with your eyes and ears than you do with your mouth ( keyboard ) in almost every situation. You are dealing with a person who without a doubt is one of the most highly regarded and respected dealers on the planet.

I call him a friend, and he has given me some serious advise point blank and has the experience and knowledge to back it up. You guys remember my grading guarantee thoughts? Mark saved me. Told me what I did not want to hear, BUT, I knew " who " I was talking to and gave that loads of consideration.

Mr Albanese is in this league. The personal attack is highly out of line and a public apology is in order.

As for the grading and stickers, I am not going to post on that, you all know my opinions from multiple threads on the subject.

 

Sorry I missed this post. You said it better than I ever could have. What I have makes me happy and that is more important than is what on the holder or if there are any stickers attached. Just be happy with what you collect. I like my low grade coins and the high grade ones all the same. Just enjoy.

 

Mark, you're right, I'm not saying you're not! I'm saying, there's no "damage," here, to anybody's reputation. You accepted the challenge, and actually went to Google, and told us what you found--nothing! If there ever was a doubt to begin with, you reasonably rebutted it. Take that verdict, and go home, I'm saying. You pressed for contrition, and you didn't get it, and that's on this record, too, pal...understand that. And, understand, every reasonable person, here, can see that, too.

EDIT: And have a great Labor Day Weekend, Mark, and everybody else!

 

I have the right to my opinion. and there was not a thing that was slanderous in what I posted

 

Your so-called "opinion" was based on your claim pertaining to facts, which, it turned out, applied to another person by the same name. And even now that your inaccuracy and carelessness have been pointed out to you, you don't have the decency to apologize.

By the way, I said you were guilty of "libel", not "slander". Below is a layman's definition of "libel", which you clearly did commit. And now, I will be forwarding this thread to Mr. Albanese.

"libel

An untruthful statement about a person, published in writing or through broadcast media, that injures the person's reputation or standing in the community. Libel is a tort (a type of civil wrong), and the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. Libel and slander (an untruthful statement that is spoken, but not published in writing or broadcast through the media), are both considered forms of defamation."

 

Mark Feld: If CAC makes a mistake by stickering and over-graded coin, they can take it off the market, remove the sticker and sell it as a non CAC coin.

Let me ask this, who's going to say CAC overgraded a coin? You already have the TPG and then CAC saying the coin is correctly graded, now who's going to be the expert to challenge these opinions, especially if you say Albanese is already a noted grading expert (which I don't disagree that he probably is)? Please know I'm not trying to be confrontational, it's just that this doesn't make sense to me, but as I stated earlier in this thread, I already think we rely too heavily on TPGS' and others' opinions on the coins we choose.

Breakdown: I do think CAC, probably unintentionally, creates a dilemma for dealers, including many top ones of integrity. If a dealer is offering a high priced coin, and the buyer says he will buy it if the dealer can get it a CAC sticker first, it puts the dealer in a difficult position.

I don't agree that dealers should feel obligated to get another party's opinion (CAC or even a TPG) before he/she sells a coin. Sure the dealer may lose the sell, but again, I take the position that it is up to the buyer to determine whether he/she likes the coin well enough to purchase it, without requiring a dealer to have it holdered or stickered by a TPG or a FPG (Fourth Party Grader like CAC). Presumably, the potential buyer is holding the coin, hopefully looking at it carefully and closely under decent light, and that buyer should be the final judge of whether that coin is for him/her, regardless of what anyone else says or thinks.

Now of course there are new collectors who need help, so they should choose someone they trust to help teach them, as well as study on their own. But how will they really learn to grade for themselves if they continually rely on others' opinions, including TPGs and CAC to purchase a coin. Sadly, from what I read here and on other forums, perhaps maybe this is where the coin business is going - maybe eventually collectors won't feel the need to learn to grade because they will simply only buy holdered coins based on everyone elses' opinions.

I personally do not guarantee that any of my raw coins will grade a certain number by a TPG, nor do I know many dealers that do either (however, I and most dealers I know do guarantee authenticity of their coins). As I mentioned earlier, a TPG is just another human giving his/her opinion on the quality of a coin. Even if that human does grading for a living, whatever manner he/she was taught or learned to grade probably differs from the way another TPG grader, or you, or me learned - which equals subjectivity, which also equals disparity and disagreement in grading.

 

[
Breakdown: I do think CAC, probably unintentionally, creates a dilemma for dealers, including many top ones of integrity. If a dealer is offering a high priced coin, and the buyer says he will buy it if the dealer can get it a CAC sticker first, it puts the dealer in a difficult position.

I don't agree that dealers should feel obligated to get another party's opinion (CAC or even a TPG) before he/she sells a coin. Sure the dealer may lose the sell, but again, I take the position that it is up to the buyer to determine whether he/she likes the coin well enough to purchase it, without requiring a dealer to have it holdered or stickered by a TPG or a FPG (Fourth Party Grader like CAC). Presumably, the potential buyer is holding the coin, hopefully looking at it carefully and closely under decent light, and that buyer should be the final judge of whether that coin is for him/her, regardless of what anyone else says or thinks.

Now of course there are new collectors who need help, so they should choose someone they trust to help teach them, as well as study on their own. But how will they really learn to grade for themselves if they continually rely on others' opinions, including TPGs and CAC to purchase a coin. Sadly, from what I read here and on other forums, perhaps maybe this is where the coin business is going - maybe eventually collectors won't feel the need to learn to grade because they will simply only buy holdered coins based on everyone elses' opinions.

I personally do not guarantee that any of my raw coins will grade a certain number by a TPG, nor do I know many dealers that do either (however, I and most dealers I know do guarantee authenticity of their coins). As I mentioned earlier, a TPG is just another human giving his/her opinion on the quality of a coin. Even if that human does grading for a living, whatever manner he/she was taught or learned to grade probably differs from the way another TPG grader, or you, or me learned - which equals subjectivity, which also equals disparity and disagreement in grading.[/QUOTE]

Charmy, I am not saying that the dealer should feel obligated to get a coin graded or stickered by CAC, I am only pointing out that there are some buyers that are going to put the dealer in that situation. We of course should all learn to grade as well as possible (I learn a little more all the time) but I also believe a collector/buyer that doesn't recognize his or her limitations with respect to grading is set up to make bad decisions in buying coins.

 

Does most of this go back to buying a coin and not a slab or sticker. Personally I have seen coins in slabs that I would not buy unless it was for melt value. There is a whole lot of grading and authenticating going on when in reality most people that buy and collect coins buy them because they like them and think they look good. If you are buying them for what the slab says and the slab has a cac label on it good for you, but did you look at the coin?

 

Yes, PeacePeople, that is exactly what I'm saying, that people need to look at the coin, forget what holder they are in, and buy the coin for what it is or what it means to them. There are certainly buyers who know they are still learning to grade, then I submit that simply buying TPG or CAC coins is still not a substitution for learning to grade on your own. As PeacePeople said, we all know there are plenty of problem coins in TPG holders.

My whole point - and I'll try and leave it at this for now - is that waaaaay too much weight and importance is being placed on whether a coin is in a TPG holder, which TPG is better, whether it has a CAC sticker before a buyer even looks at a coin - the most important thing is and much more weight should be placed on the collector NEEDS TO LEARN TO GRADE FIRST and FOREMOST before they go out spending any kind of significant money on coins.* A TPG graded coin should be completely secondary and more of a "bonus" rather than the first thing a collector looks for in a coin.

*I do feel that one of the best ways to learn to grade is looking and studying a lot of coins, so an investment in coins of whatever series you want to learn for this purpose is a good idea and of course he/she will have to rely on someone else's opinion as to the grade of those coins.

 

I agree with you in principle. However, on a practical basis, far too many collectors aren't knowledgeable enough to be safely spending their money on coins they know so little about with respect to authenticity, quality and doctoring. Just look at all of the bidders on Ebay who throw away money on counterfeits or horribly over-graded and/or doctored coins. I have seen the same at coins shows, auctions and on coin forum discussions.

 

True Mark, very true, but IMHO that is no argument for encouraging people to, in essence, not worry about the grade of coin because it is graded by a well-known TPG and then also has a green bean added to that TPG holder. I realize that TPG's have made it more comfortable to buy coins sight unseen - but unfortunately, as you and everyone else has seen - it is a false comfort. And it has also lead to the lack of encouragement to collectors to become educated FIRST, especially by some of the "big gun" TPG promoters. So IMHO all the discussions about TPG and CAC should include emphasis on the collectors FIRST caring about the quality of the coin and learning to grade.

Personally, I get frustrated when some of my customers refuse to even look at a coin in in a holder different than what they are focused on, or even a raw coin. I can't tell you how many times I go ahead and place raw and other TPG coins of the same year/grade/price range (sometimes even less expensive) in front of them, and they see that the other TPG coin is of better quality than the one in TPG holder they are focused on, but they refuse to consider buying it due to it not fitting in their registry set or because all their coins are in only one type of holder.

Yes, the registry business has invented a lot of what I call "coin robots" (and I am the first to admit it the invention of registry competition was/is a huge marketing coo!) but TPG's (and now CAC) have also lead to the laziness of coin collectors to learn what a quality coin and authentic coin should look like, in essence sacrificing the necessity and importance of coin education.

 

Charmy, I hate to have to tell you this, but

I wholeheartedly agree. Very well said.

 

Thank you. I honestly do not care about the plastic thingy some coins come it. I actually hate them....just sayin....