Coin Robberies

And now you are after NGC. Hi Ruben.

 

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If you’re thinking what I’m thinking that makes two of us.

 

Common Sense:

(1) Don't tell people you are a coin collector unless it's trustworthy relatives and super-close friends. You're basically telling people you have liquid cash in your home. And yeah, that includes any relatives or friends who are hurting financially and not 100% honest.

(2) Use a safe or SDB. They are probably best for the bulk of your coins but.....

(3) Don't be afraid to hide a few of your most valuable coins separate from your bulk gold or silver stackings. Any thief is looking to get in-and-out quickly unless you live in a very rural, isolated area. They're not going to look in the nooks and crannies of your house for a few stray slabbed coins that are the size of a few credit cards bundled together.

I don't have the data -- any ex-cops here ? -- but I'll wager the average thief spends < 5 minutes ransacking a place looking for money/jewelry/valuables. In fact, I know a few people who actually keep a few hundred bucks in an envelope near a nightstand with the expectation (hope ?) that any potential thief will see that, grab it, and get out.

 

None of this helps without cooperation of the dealers and the police....fwiw.

 

They were mostly certified and we have the serioal number and the images of the slabs. FWIW, they can ID coins without slabs these days. It is all about will. Most coin theft can be stopped if it was determind within the community to end it with finger printing and tranisiton tracking and being open about the problem and enforcing sensible rules to protect collectors.

 

I would love to hear you elaborate on this.

 

He is not just after NGC. He is after everyone who is between him and recovery of his coins. This concept that the transactions are private is bogus and enables broad theft in the market.

 

?

 

The mods have made it clear that they don't want us to venture into this, so that is that. I'll just leave it with the fact that the police in NYC did not cooperate in the investigation or even in the police report and still do not cooperate, and rebuffed attempts to move forward with an investigation.

 

@GoldFinger1969 I'm not expecting him to address a comment he eluded to already. Wantonly throwing out accusations to hope something sticks isn't a formidable offense.

 

Did you read the part where the mods killed this discussion as it is politics? RIF

 

https://www.fsp-law.com/buying-stolen-property-some-cautionary-tales/

Also, does prosecuting the criminals matter, and closing down a burgerly ring and fencing operations within the community.... does that matter? It is just too easy right now to rob coins and fense them on the market. There are too many stolen coins in circulation and on the market and there are not nearly enough safeguards.

 

Me either. There has to be rules, otherwise things melt down and conversations stop being civil. Rather than being sidelined by a discussion on the politics of big city policing, we can just focus on the fact that in this case they were of no use and rebuffed efforts to move towards a serious investigation. That causes a cascade of difficulties as the auction houses and graders will not cooperate fully without police involvement.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, regardless how wrong headed it is. Just to make a correction.... we were talking SOLVING robberies (or a burglry I suppose under the law). I know it is hard to read when one is flying off the handle. So take a deep breath and slow down and read. Secondly, you are WRONG. We hire the police to prevent crime, and EACH preceinct in NYC has a crime prevention division and the citywide focus of compstat is a huge effort to prevent crimes. Crime prevention is very much the first thing we talk about when discussing police tactics and actions. We count all the crimes and determine if they are going up or down month to month and that is the standard we use to measure effective policing. So there is that....fact.

Whether or not this is correct to think the police should have this responsibility or not, or if they is a characteristic of NYC or police across the US, or if one likes the police for doesn't like the police is beside the point and is politics. This is just the facts.

If your going to add a rant to the conversation with a long winded emotional oped, at least don't blame the victims and try to do it intelligently.

In this case the police did NOT do a thorough investigation and refused to do so. In your opinion that is acceptable, otherwise one is ridiculed as expecting a "nanny state". I think it is fair to say your opinion has no legs to stand on. It is fair for citizens to expect the police to make efforts to prevent crime and to respond reasonably and to investigate them when they happen. Then it is fair to expect them to be helpful in prosecution and recovery of lost property. Across most of the country most electorates demand this of their local government and that is what happens. In this case it did not.

You have a different standard. I am not here to argue the politics.

We need the police to take this coin theft more seriously. A week before this theft, a coin dealer not more than 15 blocks away was shot dead over coins stolen from him on Kings Highway. These are serious crimes.

In addition to that, we need to harden the coin collecting business to make it more resistant to steal and engage in commerce with stolen coins. Dealers should not purchase coins without verifying the source of the coins when looking at purchases over a reasonable dollar amount. All thrid party graders should collaborate with an open database of fingerprinted coins where thefts, and sales can be recorded. Client privacy should be all but ended. Purchasing and sales of coins needs to come out of the dark. Victims of coin theft need to be believed and cooperated with. And the police should cooperate with these efforts in a streamlined fashion. If the industry doesn't start to get serious about this, more restrictive laws and rules will be mandated from the government, if for no other reason than tax collection. It is time for change.
Thank You

 

In the case of Rowland v Divall (1923), the claimant, a car dealer, bought a car from the defendant. He then painted the car, placed it in his showroom, and later sold it to a customer for a higher price. It later transpired the car was stolen, and it was impounded by the police, then returned to the original owner. In this scenario, both the claimant and defendant had no idea the car had been stolen. The car dealer returned the customer’s money, and brought a claim against the defendant.

The court held the defendant did not have the “right” to sell the goods as he did not obtain “good title” from the thief, therefore ownership remained with the original owner (who the police had subsequently returned the car to).


This logic appeared to be reflected in section 12(1) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (SGA), which provided that “….there is an implied term on the part of the seller that in the case of a sale he has a right to sell the goods…” Though this immediately seems to require a seller to have the appropriate power to confer title to a buyer, some commentators have suggested it only affords the right to sell the goods – which is somewhat problematic as the “power” to confer title and the “right” to sell goods, may not always go together. The law needed some clarification.


Believe it or not, as recent as the early 1990s the law actually allowed title to pass in the sale of stolen goods under a concept known as “marché ouvert” (translating into market overt). Under “marché ouvert”, provided goods were openly sold in designated markets between sunrise and sunset, anyone who bought goods immediately obtained legal title to the item, whatever its provenance. Effectively, a buyer automatically acquired good title to such stolen goods, provided they bought them in good faith, and without notice of any defect or want of title on the part of the seller. This acted as a haven for fine art crooks, who flourished by reason of this obscure medieval loophole. This loophole was abolished by later legislation in the mid-1990s.

 

What's your proof of that ? There are thefts, but I don't think it's an epidemic.

Much easier to steal jewelry in poor areas, where you wouldn't see many valuable coins.

 

Right off the bat we agree. Your opinion is wrong. (See how that works). When a crime is in progress, and seconds count, the police are minutes away. How are they supposed to stop the crime? They cannot be everywhere all the time. I'm not the one who said the police are there to prevent crime, you did. So SOLVING the 'robbery' is your amendment to this quote of yours:

This conversation will get old real quick with each of us saying 'you're wrong'. I'll put that to rest now. If you can't hold a big boy conversation without saying nah nah nah you're opinion is wrong, then we'll terminate the discussion now. FYI, Just because you say someone is wrong doesn't mean they're wrong. It only means you don't have the capacity to discuss facts and process them.

I'm very sure your precincts Crime Prevention Unit does not focus on, and exclusively say, go about your daily lives, we're here to make sure you're safe and crime free, don't worry about a thing. I'd be willing to bet they focus on your responsibilities to mitigate the possibility of you becoming a statistic. For instance, lock your doors. Don't walk alone at night. Stay on well lit streets. Avoid areas prone to more crime. Don't leave items of value on your car seat in plain view. DON'T DISCUSS YOUR VALUABLES WITH OTHERS. Don't give your password to anyone. Practice situational awareness.

No, the fact is everyone needs to take responsibility for their own safety. Trying to pass that off to the police or anyone else for that matter is a personal irresponsibility.

Look in the mirror. Intelligence, when referring to ones safety does not fall on the shoulders of anyone but the victim. Did the victim do everything in their power to thwart the threat? Obviously a 110 lb woman is no match for a 275 lb muscled guy. Therefore it's her personal responsibility to stay with a group of people. Keep her phone ready but not walk down the street with her nose buried in Twitter. Call a cab if necessary. Carry a whistle and have it ready. If old enough, carry a taser/stun gun. If reason to be fearful is imminent, then proactively call the police for an escort home.

As for your burglary situation, you obviously broke the cardinal rule about discussing your valuables with someone beyond your inner most circle.

Unfortunately, the police must prioritize their caseload. In your situation there was no bodily harm to anyone. Your case is a top priority to you, not them. There's too much rape, murder, assault, domestic violence, hit and runs, keeping the police busy. Your coins, as valuable as they were, do not fall into the same category as the personal attacks just listed.

As already mentioned many times, it is not realistic for the police to prevent crime. Even if you highlight your statement by underlining it. The police are there to clean up the mess, give you a police report to submit your claim to your homeowner or rental insurance carrier. Would it be idealistic and amazing if they could solve every crime to the level of each victims acceptance? Yes. It's that simple. But it ain't gonna happen. Hence your unrealistic expectation of the men and women in blue.

 

Privacy is important to the hobby. There are many collectors with important collections that do not want the world to know what they are holding. That would give the bad guys a hit list to target.

Look at the forums and the registry. Few use real names for security reasons and that is wise. Over time collectors learn who you are but they don't go around telling others. This keeps the bad guys away. Look at this site. We don't show our address or phone numbers. That's like giving out your SS# and DOB.

Privacy slows down the theft problem. It won't stop it but it sure helps take the target off your back. Some collectors have a dealer buy and sell coins for them. They don't want anyone to know who they are and for good reason.

 

Police have a process they follow. They take the report and it gets passed to the department that handles that type of crime. Those officers look for patterns that link different reports together and follow leads that have the most possibility of good results.

As a victim, you will not be told the the results or details of the investigation unless the case gets solved. They can not give out details. It could kill the case with the DA's office. You can't allow victims in the middle of an investigation.

I had the police at my door yesterday to take a report about a meth problem at a rental house I own. They were kind enough to answer several questions I had. I have the right to go in the house and inspect it and wanted the police with me to cover my back. For legal reasons they could not do that.

Calling the police lazy without all the facts is just wrong.