Teen pays in legal tender has to call cops

he mentioned in the beginning of the video where he was, at a pub, while his car was being towed, it was gone when he came back. I also noted in an earlier post they were likely towed for illegal parking.

 

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Yeah I've heard that.

Too bad the police didn't know it.

 

I like pennies but man. they are being smart a$$es. When i saw that he was 18yrs old i just knew it. Especially when you first start making the film his friends are laughing and it is posted on youtube. To where if he is not allowed to pay, which i know ran through their minds, he could be a victim and have a court case on this, and praying he did not get the same judge with OJ or MJ. The judge would have ruled to where they premeditated on this to get a rise from the company. God i hate people like this. An 89c burrito at Taco Bell sure but an $88 tow, man he had to have cashed them except for a hoarder, who has $88 worth in pennies and who knows the exact amount. Sorry for the rant

 

I'd love to see a citation to a decided case allowing rejection of legal tender in payment of a debt.

You're right that there are no laws mandating acceptance of payment in any particular manner when making a purchase, and the constitution is silent on that point. However, once a "debt" is created, the effect of making tender of payment in "legal tender" is to cancel that debt, whether or not the tender is accepted. Since the teenagers were tendering payment of charges that had been previously incurred, they were tendering payment of a "debt", and had the right to recover their car whether or not the towing company accepted the tender.

A comparison I used in 1960s law school contract classes to demonstrate the difference between "debt" and other "obligation to pay" is between MacDonald's and Denny's, two well-known restaurant chains.

• A MacDonalds customer never owes the company a debt. He/she orders, pays, and only then receives the food.
• At Denny's on the other hand, the diner does become a debtor. He/she orders, receives the food thereby becoming indebted, and then pays the bill.

MacDonalds may legally require payment in any form it desires - even buttons can be required. Denny's cannot place limits on the patron's manner of payment, without cancellation of the debt. Even the rejection of bills larger than a specified amount would technically have that effect, although the customer could be given the option of paying in smaller bills or waiting a reasonable time for the company to process the payment, and arrange a refund of his/her change.

Article 1, §8 of the US Constitution gives Congress the right to "coin money and regulate the value thereof", and Article 1, §10, clause 1, forbids any State from making "anything but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts". In Title 31, §5103 Congress has exercised its sole authority to declare that US coins, in any amount are legal tender for payment of debt. End result: When the teenagers (whether acting wisely or foolishly) tendered $88 in US coins, they expunged their debt and became entitled to possession of their car. If the towing company didn't want the cents, that's their option, but retaining possession of the car after that tender constituted conversion in civil court, grand theft auto in criminal court; and any judge in California or elsewhere in the United States would be bound to so determine.

Now, all of that being said, there are still ramifications I haven't discussed, and perhaps now it becomes apparent why I have declined on other occasions to go into detail on legal issues. Attorneys are not long winded because they love to hear themselves talk, they are long winded because complex issues can't be summarized in a few words.

BTW: This comment just ain't so with respect to payment of debt, although the first sentence is quite accurate with respect to other payments:

 

I think it is a good way to pay your taxes too...

Good for him, that'll show them to tow his car! LOL

 

Good clarificaiton hontonai, presumably if the pennies were refused the kid could have gone into court to have the debt discharged since a valid payment of legal tender was offered and refused.

I don't have any cites handy, but I think a Denny's may still be able to get around this since businesses can still choose what forms of legal tender they wish to recieve for their debts... of course if they want to avoid trouble and potential litigation, they should specifiy those forms which they accept up front before serving up the Grand Slam breakfast to the penny paying customer I've been in restaurants that clearly have signs saying no bills over $20, but haven't seen any signs saying no pennies (yet!)

 

Sorry, you're view of the law is wrong. Legal tender is legal tender, and the penalty for refusing it is surrender of the debt.

One of our members has my favorite quotation from Abe Lincoln in his sig - the one about calling a tail a leg. Putting up a sign that says "This establishment will not honor the Constitution of the United States" does not relieve the company of the consequences of its act.

As I said before, if they want to say "we can't make change for any bills over a certain amount", they are free to take the customer's larger bill in payment of the debt, and make the customer wait for change until the company headquarters can make arrangements to obtain it, or with the customer's consent make change with a check to be issued as soon as it can reasonably be arranged for.

Of course I recognize that the practicalities of litigation come into play, and it may be more expensive and time consuming to stand on ones rights than it's worth. Nevertheless, I assure you that if all I had was a $50, and Denny's refused to accept it for a $10 tab with my agreement to wait for my change to be mailed in the form of a check, I would walk out and successfully defend any petty theft or fraud charge.

 

its worse in my town they wont accept rolls as payment imma see if the coinstore will accept halves

 

Yeah, eating donuts, drinking coffee, maybe writing jaywalking tickets. That is what the Atlantic City police do. Nevermind there are drug dealers, prostitutes, and vagrants on every corner.

PS. You guys really need to get a sense of humor. This was really funny.

 

Yeah!! What he said!!

 

The only time someone can refuse a payment method is before the services/goods are rendered. A store can refuse to accept pennies or anything over twenties as long as you are not already in debt to them, like at a gas station where you pay before you receive goods.

Once a service/good is render then you become in debt to the merchant/person and therefore they must accept any form of legal tender. If you are in debt to someone and they refuse payment in legal tender than you can take them to court and have the debt erased on grounds of not accepting legal tender.

ETA: hontonai beat me too it and explained it much better than I did.....

 

For everyone debating the legality of having to accept pennies as tender:

The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all United States money are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.


ONLY PRIVATE BUSINESSES can refuse it, if this tow agency had any affiliation with the city,county, etc. (as most do) They are in dealings with a government and therefore cannot refuse it.

SOURCE:

http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml

 

Ok, hope if you don't mind what is probably a silly question but where do other forms of tender fit into all of this.

It seems from that section of code that U.S. currency and coins are legal tender but foreign currency and coins are not. But, there are many places that do not accept out of town checks or certain types of credit cards etc. These are clearly not illegal tender, but they must not be legal tender as well since places are not obligated to take them. What kind of legal restrictions do these fall under as far as accepting/declining them fall under?

Edit: Reading the above link makes me even more confused. What point is it that something is even considered legal tender if, according to that law and that interpretation, people do not even have to accept it. It even notes in that question that some government agencies do not accept it. Then why bother calling it legal tender or making other tender illegal?

Don't know if that made any sense, but all of this talk just had me wondering how those fit into the legal side of the system.

 

There is a huge difference between "illegal" tender - essentially only counterfeit coin or currency - and "non" legal tender - anything other than US coins and currency.

"Illegal" tender can be confiscated as contraband, which means that the government can take it without reimbursement of any kind.

"Non" legal tender may be accepted, declined, or accepted with conditions, at the discretion of the receiver.

Again, what must be kept in mind is the difference between "debts" and other obligations. Refusal to accept legal tender for a debt has serious adverse consequences but in non-debt cases such as a typical retail store transaction, the obligee is king and can impose any restriction that is not expressly forbidden by law (such as charging a fee for use of a credit card, even though giving a discount for cash is permitted.)

 

rolls i wouldn't care

 

same

 

the time the kid took to secure and count all the pennies, he was going to use for payment, could have been better used. Did he carry all the pennies on hes bicycle to the towing agency? That would be heavy.

 

Between 48.4 and 60.21 pounds, depending on the mix of pre/post-1982s.

 

This is what I thought. I thought that a private business can refuse or accept any form of payment they choose. I think the kids were just trying to be a pain.