While I understand your point with the auction prices realized, the fact remains that the price guides are comparable which negates any chance of wrong doing. In addition the coin has rainbow toning which puts it into another market completely for which there is no price guide. We can play what ifs all day, but we both know that if the seller thought the coin had a really good chance of crossing, he would probably spend the money to find out. Then again, maybe he did and it didn't cross but he still believes that the coin is a solid (PCGS) MS67. Again, I can't read his mind, but it the whole situation looks suspicious. Furthermore, it was never my intent to get the listing shut down. I don't know how that happened but I hope it had nothing to do with this thread.
I was very surprised to see the listing shut down and have no idea what the basis was. One last hypothetical for you (for now) and then I'll let you rest What do you think of a seller of a PCGS coin who includes the PCGS Price Guide (and no other pricing information), when that price is rougly double what such coins have been selling for? Unethical? If not, why not? It seems that the intent might be to mislead or deceive potential bidders.
Mike, You know darn well that not every PCGS MS67 is better than every NGC MS67. But when the population number is 14 to 744 and a similar ratio exists for every other date/mm for the series, there is a definite grading standard difference and statistics dictate that this coin would probably not grade at the MS67 level by PCGS. I hope I am way off base and the seller truly believes he has a coin worth $600. Unfortunately, I work (and play) all day with grifters who have forced the cynic in me to be at constant attention. With regards to your previous post, I don't think you really believe what you wrote. If the seller listed the coin at that price with the intent to swindle the uneducated, it is certainly unethical.
I saw a coin on Ebay today that appears similar to a number which have sold in the $2000 price range recently. Yet the PCGS Price Guide price is about $4000. Is it ethical to include only the PCGS Price Guide value and not auction values? I guess my point is that generally speaking, it is unfair to infer intent or lack of ethics based simply on a listed asking price.
Some would say it is unfair to ask 6X the normal asking price for a coin that has no apparent reason to drive a premium. What would you say to the novice collector who bought this coin for $600 and approached you for a second opinion. If any part of your answer involves the words "ripped off" and you still don't see an ethical problem, then I will assume that you think it is acceptable for dealers to rip off customers who don't know any better. PS. I know you don't think that way, your actions over the years are all the proof I need.
I'll answer your questions, even though you didn't answer mine. In the absence of mitigating circumstances/particulars, I think it is piggish/unfair to ask 6X the normal price. But I don't think that asking price, alone, necessarily makes the owner unethical. I would tell the novice collector that he paid a price that was 6X what most examples of that grade/designation have typically sold for. And to see if he could get most of his money back. Sometimes I don't know where one should draw the line between piggish/unfair and unethical, though all of those traits bother me a great deal.
To answer your question, no it is not unethical to exclude auction prices that are lower (even 2x) than the price guide. With a little research, the potential buyer should be able to see that the coins are not reaching the price guide price. The difference is that in my example, there will be auction coins at both levels of price. Expecting a novice collector to understand that the two TPG's have different grading standards for the series is unrealistic. They are told on this and every other forum that NGC and PCGS are the big two with PCGS driving slightly higher prices. My guess is that novices see absolutely no difference between the two TPG's unless they got an early shot of kool aid along the way. I understand that you think it is unfair to label the seller as unethical, but the seller really gave me no other choice than to be suspicious. The chances that he owned an NGC MS67 that would meet PCGS standard for the MS67 grade are remote. In addition, the photos were terrible and there was no way for the buyer to grade the coin himself. There was no description of the coin or explanation for the premium. My guess is that if you were the seller of this coin, you would have provided a very detailed explanation for the price. My opinion of this listing was that a professional dealer went fishing.
I acknowledge there's a different grading standard, but that's not the point. The point is that we should look at the coin itself, not the grade on the holder, or the apparent different grading standard, before suggesting a coin is priced out of line with its quality, much less imply the seller is unethical. I see nothing to suggest, other than a perhaps optimistic price, that the seller is intending to swindle the uneducated, particularly in light of the points brought up in my prior paragraph (and the results of this poll!). And I believe every word I wrote above. What's more is I practice what I preach. I've bought NGC graded (and even raw) coins for PCGS prices, and I'd do so again -- PROVIDED THE COIN IS ALL THERE AND WORTH THE ASKING PRICE IN MY EYES.
If somebody thinks that coin is a $600, well that is their opinion, there will always be a dual opinion on this matter. I found the seller is either being clever, and trying to get people to think PCGS is the only way to go, when in fact he knows the truth, and he is tricking people into thinking they are getting a good deal, or he thinks that PCGS is the only way to go, even if it is in an NGC slab, he thinks that the NGC grade, though it has a higher population, and they are more lenient on jeffersons, should go for the PCGS price, which has a lower population and is more conservative on jeffersons. I think the seller asking this high of a price, and using the PCGS price guide as his starting price, is just down right stupid, and I feel sorry for the poor sucker who would buy this. I have no problem paying a PCGS price for an NGC coin, but that coin better look beautiful, and it should meet to the standards of the opposing grading company if I were to crossover.
Mike, I would love to look at the coin and judge for myself. However, as I pointed out in a previous post, the sellers photos were garbage and gave the buyer no information about the coin. In addition, the seller made no attempt to explain why he listed the coin at the PCGS price. If he had simply stated in his listing that he believes the coin is an MS67 and would, in his opinion, qualify for the same grade in a PCGS holder, I would never have questioned his ethics. Without quality photos or an explanation, he leaves me no choice but to question his intent. You know I am an avid poker player. The game of poker is all about odds and deciphering intent. The odds are in this case that the seller is trying to pawn off an NGC Jefferson at PCGS prices. I don't know this for sure, but the odds are 53 to 1 that might inclination is right. The odds stated above involve assumptions, but that too is a large part of the the game of poker.