Debate this coin: AT vs NT

While I'm certainly no expert on toned coins, sometimes I see things that blow my mind. I've looked at a lot of AT coins on eBay and feel like I'm getting better at spotting AT coins. So when I saw this one, I instantly thought AT, mostly because of the recent date, this coin seems to have more toning than coins 100+ years older. The colors don't seem way off, but they also don't seem to be perfect either.



I don't want to fool anyone, this is a graded coin, by PCGS!

http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2714&lot=2592

So? What is artificial toning and what is not? Is putting a coin in an album or a paper wrapper that you know will tone a coin, any different than putting it in the oven or chemically treating it, or any other AT method? What was your initial thought when you saw this coin, AT or NT?

 

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My initial thought when I see this coin is AT.
But I am no expert on toned coins...

 

look how the bottom of the "Y" is a different color than the field around it. That is a tip off that it is NT. That being said it looks phony to me also.

 

NT, juiced photos.

 

Not sure who first said this here, but to me AT floats with the luster of the coin and NT sits on the coin. In this case to me NT or AT I would not buy it, but just from the scans I would say NT. I think chemically treating the coin does more than just tone it - it impacts the surface of the coin. Same with heating. Just my opinion.

 

QT. Could be AT, could be NT. We'll likely never know.

 

I am tracking this coin, mostly to see what it sells for. I wouldn't buy this coin for more than melt!

At any rate, lets say it's NT; wouldn't we see many more coins like this, at least, color wise? I mean, if a subcontractor makes the planchets, which are made in sheets then punched into exact size rounds, wouldn't all the planchets from that "recipe" tone the same? So maybe all the AT looking silver Eagles on eBay are NT?

 

It's NT.

The color progression is dead on. IF it is AT, someone did a great job. The major tip off for me is green, it is the hardest of any color to achieve through ATing coins.

 

Differences or similarities in toning are usually far more likely to be the result of storage or environmental conditions than they are the method of production.

 

Funny how we hardly ever see silver bars toned like this.

AT vs NT is a debate. There is no hard definition for either that everyone will agree on. Even the TPG's can't find common ground.

 

I automatically thought AT when I saw the obverse but then when I saw the reverse was much less rainbow'd, I thought better chance this could be NT. I personally don't own any rainbow coins and don't know a whole lot about how they are kept to get them NT'd like this but I do know how reactive to environment and chems metals and coins are and are likely to do this. I also don't really agree with rainbows fetching such a high premium for simple surface reaction to a coin of equal grading.

 

I think at add a poll

 

While I agree that green is probably the most difficult color to achieve in the AT process, that alone does not preclude it from being AT. Here is an AT coin with pink and green just like this ASE.



Having said that, I agree with Mike. This coin definitely falls in the realm of QT and I doubt we will ever be able to say with any certainty whether the coin is AT or NT. The coin has elements of NT. The color progression is yellow-magenta-cyan. The devices and lettering show different colors than the areas surrounding them. The reverse looks very original. That was the good. The bad is that it just looks "off". Maybe the photo is juiced to the point that the colors look different in hand. Maybe the colors are deep and vibrant but they don't appear that way in the photo. I don't think we can even make educated guess without seeing the coin in hand.

I say QT, leaning towards AT. Silver bullion coins are prime candidates for coin doctors to experiment. There is no downside since the coin has basically no numismatic value and AT won't hurt the intrinsic value.

 

"I think at add a poll "

My thoughts exactly!

 

That was another thought, what is the difference in toning between natural and, roll or album toning storage, in Florida (mostly hot and humid) and storage in Colorado (moderate and dry)? Both are places I have lived or currently live.

 

I have several ASE from the late 80-early 90 that I bought in Treasury green lid tubes and left them there. Some of them produced coloration similar to this one, except, it wasn't corona like, it was unevenly dispersed across the coin and with a deep indigo blue prevalent out of sequence. I think some of the toning aspect is due to the much higher silver % than Morgans. I would bet on some aspect of artificial on this coin, but we have debated many times as to what was AT and what was NT. Intent was often mentioned along with time period. I think it is time that the TPG , with their wide inconsistency in judging it ,start just grading all toned coins technically and not eye appeal basis, and adopt the "don't ask - don't tell" the armed services utilizes. It is all chemistry, one way or another.

Jim

 

Which leads me, somewhat, into my last, I think, question. If "JoeOneSubmitalPerYear" submits a toned coin (similar to the one shown), and "JoeSubmitsAlotOfCoinsPerYear" submits the same coin will it come back graded the same?

My opinion is that PCGS made a mistake grading the coin shown? How can they be SURE this is not questionable toning?

 

Like cleaning and dipping, there are some coins done that can be told by a newbie after a few days on the forum, but other coinswould get by most on the forum and many TPG.

Like Ebay and every grading person or company in the US, the key word is opinion.
If you send one in a year and no one knows your real name, you have a lesser chance in my opinion of getting a NT than Ms.Big who submits 5,000 yr. and is mentioned as a foremost coin dealer. But I am not saying that is wrong for them to do, as they are drawing on that person's grading experience also. After all, it is just an opinion, and they get their payment either way. TPGs are not Consumers Reports(c)

If there was some test that could be done to separate AT from NT reliably, without damaging the coin, this would be a moot point, but at this point it is all opinion. They can not say for sure it is NT, just opinion.

Jim

 

I always thought the NT vs AT debate would be an excellent idea for a thesis for an aspiring metallurgist looking to obtain his PHD. They would have unlimited access to laboratory equipment including SEM (scanning electron microscopes). I think research in this area might unlock the secret to differentiating between AT & NT. However, if you need an SEM to tell the difference, don't expect the TPG's to entertain that idea anytime soon. The other problem is that silver is not an engineering material and very few metallurgists would want to waste their time on the subject.

 

Looks natural to me. Dont forget folks, these are .999 fine, not .900.
It may be accelerated in some way, but the color progression and the " legend jumping" DanR noted looks right to me.

That is from an internet pic