Two very old gold coins

Since the magnet does not stick it's a good sign that the coins are not filled with steel and gold is certainly not magnetic itself-- there remains a possibility of these being gold.

 

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To GDMJSP

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=701102&AucID=515&Lot=1619

3,54g -modern counterfeit ???

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=701105&AucID=515&Lot=1622

3,27g!!!!!! - modern counterfeit sold for more then 1700 $ ?????

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=670459&AucID=489&Lot=4461

3.37g - modern counterfeit sold for more then 1000 $ ????

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=599168&AucID=435&Lot=1072

3.59g modern counterfeit sold for around 700 $ ????


this is just couple of examples from well known europian auctions....

 

@GDJMSP:
I'm intrigued by jakal's uncovered 'treasure' story yet it totall "sounds too good to be true" in scenario. I completely concur with your facts and authority in these old world coins, and especially regarding the mushy details which immediately looks like these are fake coins. I hope that we will learn more details of where these coins were found, though I know if someone finds a treasure spot they are not going to reveal their location. However, some evidence of the site, the excavation and pre-cleaned condition would help jakal gain some credibility in the claim.

Is there any chance these are crappy replicas issued by some European collectors mint company and not intentional counterfeits? Possibly done lesser kt. gold or with a higher kt. gold plate?

Isn't there also a rather complex amount of legal ownership issues of finding 'lost' treasure, because it may yet belong to someone, a group, institution or government and can thus be contested? If authentic, shouldn't these be reported to local authorities in antiquities the way that sunken hoards are often announced prior to being fully reclaimed, cleaned authenticated and potentially resold?

I understand that this is especially the case in more recent discoveries like the S.S. Central America by the Columbus-America Discovery Group and the S.S. Republic by the Odyssey Marine Exploration group. Odyssey has also been finding a lot in their dives below the English Channel and there are UNESCO conventions about finding wrecks in international waters that come into play. Other types of wrecks, if belonging to a soverign navy, remain the property of that nation where ever it is found. The Spanish galleon Atocha shipwreck caught a lot of headlines when it's cache was brought up. Immediately old logs and records were scrutinized and the treasure was contested.

 

some more pictures ,made in daylight
GDJMSP i appreciate all information you ve given me

 

I agree with GDJMSP. You don't need to know anything about ducats to see that those pieces were cast.

 

jakal, take them to have the metal content tested at a coin or jewelry dealer.

 

what about his one? 3,55g
krispy i will post other 3 very soon.....

 

last picture is taken from : http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=634288&AucID=457&Lot=1552

i dont think people from HD Rauch auctionhouse Wienna selling fakes...

 

jakal,

I don't know anything about these types of coins but I can tell you that if you think they truly are gold, you can buy a gold purity testing kit on ebay for around $20.00. I bought one and they work good. It's the same thing a jeweler would use.

All the kit is, is a piece of stone with fine grit, and a few bottles of chemicals. You would rub the edge of one of these coins lightly on the stone, leaving behind a very small, but visible line of gold flakes. Then you just put a drop of 22k solution on the line. Some loose flakes may come up in the drop but if you can still see the line, it is 22k gold. If the line immediately turns brown and dissolves away leaving a clear spot, it is not 22k grade.

You can try each k rating down the line. Next you could try 18,14, and finally 10. If the 10k dissolves the line, then you know it's very impure gold if it's gold at all.

This is a very simple and cheap test. How about getting one and checking back with us, eh?

It's not a matter of trusting you. It's just that most people here are well educated and we've seen so many of these Cinderella stories come and go where somebody thought they really had something rare, and then it was proven to be fake. There are counterfeits of everything out there. The Chinese are counterfeiting everything, legally these days. Including common silver quarters and dimes. So there's no reason to believe that somebody wouldn't have or couldn't have counterfeited these crudely designed (compared to modern standards) ducats over the last 4 centuries.

It has also been brought to my attention in the past that weights of coins had much closer tolerances hundreds of years ago than they do today. In other words, there is no way a real coin that was supposed to be 3.5 ended up being an extra .18 worth of gold on accident. It just would not have happened. I think that is the point GD is trying to make.

 

Thank you very much fir your advise VESS1 !!!! i would like to try it for sure ,i found this on ebay
is it any good? this one is for 40$ including shipping

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6-GOLD-TESTIN...66:2|39:1|72:1688|240:1318|301:0|293:2|294:50

 

No problem and yes, that is exactly what I got. But I only got the gold bottles and the guy threw in a free bottle of 22k solution for a delay. The kit in your link comes with the silver and platinum test bottles as well. I didn't get those with mine. But wouldn't be bad to have on hand if you were doing a lot of metal detecting. I do some but so far I've only found clad. Haven't had to worry about it. I just wanted to check a ring that wasn't stamped 14k. It was 14k.

The test works really easy. Just make sure the line you make is solid enough. If the solution dissolves it, you'll know within about 1 second. The flakes instantly turn brown and disappear. If it stands up to the test solution, nothing happens. Maybe a few loose flakes will come up in the drop but they won't dissolve and the line will remain mostly intact.

If you think something may be gold plated, you may want to rub the item in one (non-discreet) spot long enough until you're sure you'd be through any plating.

 

I've always been curious about these DIY kits.
Does this scratching process create a detectable damage spot on coins?
There's no where really discreet on a coin right? esp. with a reeded edge.

 

I wouldn't try it with a proof commemorative or a really high dollar BU coin unless as a last resort, and only if the authenticity was in question. It would be a judgement call based on the coin. I personally would risk the small amount of damage on a coin in question to verify it if I really wanted to know. Even if it did leave a small scuff.

The stone is very very fine grit. Most things you could probably get enough gold off of for the test with one light swipe. It does very little damage. It only takes a very minute amount. For a more accurate test though, you'd probably want to make sure you at least got through a possible plated layer.

The coins in this thread appear to be good candidates. They may be real gold. At least he could find that out. Although it still would not authenticate them as being genuine of course.

 

Thanks Vess1.
I figured that might be the case with testing PR or BU coins. I agree that Jakal needs to determine the metal in these, even if they are copies, and they sure do look like they are, as everyone has pointed out. It would be cool to have found that much gold detecting even if bad casts, and supposing they are not just plated.

So have you seen Jakal's silver detector find coins on the other thread now?... http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t58691/#post625509

Also, been meaning to ask you, is there any chance that Vess1 refers to the Vess soda company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vess

 

Nope, but I knew it existed. Was just a nickname.

 

real?????


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIGISMUND-LUX...66:2|39:1|72:1684|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

 

A variation of .06 grams can easily caused by an imprecise scale.

 

Ardatirion

I dont understand your point . you saying 0,06 can be easily caused by imprecise scales and here is the point - IT IS 2009 now ,when these coins were struck the year was roughly 1450 - 1500,what do you think about the scales they were using ,were they more precise then now ??? i dont think so.

i ve seen so many of these ducats (of which weight was more then 3.5g even more 3.6g) sold for big money ,if it was true what you saying, then all of these sellers must have imprecise scales .again ,i dont think so....