The ~ 600:1 Ratio here at CT

For a while now, (almost a year) I have been watching the number of coin collectors-vs-paper money collectors here at CT. I also belong to another Fourm where PaperMoney is discussed more actively than coins, however, there are only a handful of members that participate.

My point here is that while on average, ~ 30 people out of the 18,800 or so members here at CT are actively involved in Paper Money that have collections that we know of. Many of you know that I once had a significant coin collection consisting of "almost the entire Series of AGE's, ASE's and APE's plus many modern proofs of gold and silver and select early US coins.

Early this year I sold almost every coin in my collection to go strictly into Paper Money......I am researching not only engravers of the PM we all want to collect but the people who came before us as well, the pioneers, the famous collections, the value of said collections and as the days linger into months and years I am starting to see the collections of some of the finest collections known being broken down and sold. I suppose everything has a life cycle, including the recognition of our own mortality and having the heart to say its time to let it go. For me, there was something about Mr. Thomas Flynns collection that has inspired me to seek out notes that were sold from his massive collection. I am lucky to have 6 of them at the moment.

I have seen some of your collections grow as well and have noted that a few of you have pieces from the recent Chet Krause collection and the Rickey Collection. I have also seen where Mr. Don Kelly is letting go of some of his personal collection.
I have had the honor of talking to several of these folks and learning what I can from them...but it is no where enough time to fully appreciate what they have done in their remarkable pursuit of this work!

Think about it for a moment before you reply to this thread......why is the ratio so far apart? What is the reason in your mind that the gap is so far spread?
While I will always have a special interest in coins, the allure of Paper Money has firmly settled within me.....there will never again be in the history of the United States Paper Money, designs and engraving of the by gone times of 1862-1934.
I now find myself seeking pieces that I know I can not afford and often wonder how these people accquire the 20K-100K + notes?
Have you ever given thought to this?

SO if you have the time or the desire to post your feeling on the collecting Gap between Paper Money and Coins, please do so. I am interested in each of your opinions, your goals, thoughts on your collections as well as others.

How will you proceed into your collecting goals, despite the raging tide of economic turmoil -vs- the passion of a collectors desire to obtain the best you can?
What is your motivation, what is your goal, what is it that will generate more interest in Paper Money to curent coin collectors?

Thank you for your remarks in advance.


Regards,


RickieB

 

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Great read, RickieB. I for one, think the biggest gap between collecting coins and paper comes down to affordability. You can purchase many types of coins from the last hundred years for a modest amount money, depending on grades. There are vast numbers of coins available for the average Joe, with many various designs. People love to show off their types. However, paper, until recently, has changed little since 1928. I'm not saying it's not beautiful or there are not varieties, but you can show an 8 year old a 1935 dollar and they know it's a dollar, yet show them a 1935 Walker or Merc. and they're awed. Availibility is what it's all about. Nice old paper costs big bucks. I'm not putting paper collecting down, mind you, I have a modest stack of my own and I love it, but notes prior to 1923 are way out of my reach. I still hope to own a nice Eagle or Chief someday.

 

Thanks Pennywise for the comments. While I agree with some of what you said, I would like to point out that there are many different varieties of PM as well. There are Legal Tenders with Red Seals, Silvers with Blue Seals, Fed Bank Notes with Brown Seals, Gold notes with Gold seals. Light Green, Dark Green and even Blue Green Seals. The PM has changed quite a bit and I am sad to say that the quality has not kept up with past issues!

There are Mules, many error varieties, inverse denoms, improper cuts, you name it, its out there. There were printing varities, Web Notes, dry and wet ink all sorts of things.
While coins do have a greater variety to be found and I agree with you there, I just feel that most people do not know enough about paper money to incite the collection interest! Yes, the older notes in higher grades do cost a lot of $$$ but so don't coins as well.

Knowledge is power and Paper seems to be in it's infancy still...perhaps one day it will emerge as a collecting powerhouse.

Thanks again for your remarks, I appreciate them very much. By the way...please post your PM for us to see, I for one would love to see your collection.

Regards,

RickieB

 

As pennywise said, I think it's an affordability issue, coupled with lack of knowledge. Just look at how unknowledgeable most people are, even on coins! I met a 19 year old kid the other day that didn't know we used gold in our coinage up to 1933. Or silver to 64. Had no idea. I suspect this is common now.
I'm sure many people think what we have now has just always been. Heck, it's worse than that. The average person doesn't even know what the modern coinage is that's coming out in 2009!! They know the quarters because they get them in change all the time. Anything else, forget about it.

Once again I say, just look at the confusion revolving around the digital signal switch for tv. This is something that's been well advertised for years now. It's been explained to anyone who was willing to inquire about it many times. Yet we still have people who have no clue about it or what they need to do. Some think they know and think they're going to get actual HD after the switch! lol
I think the average Joe's ambition and thirst for knowledge these days is pretty limited concerning EVERYTHING. Doesn't get much past the 24 pack for the weekend I'm betting.

Given all this, is it any wonder that most people have no idea about old currency? Unless you sit a group of people down in a classroom to educate them for a few hours, they will never know. And even after that, some would still not understand. And if they did, few would have the disposable income or the willpower to get into it. Just as it is with coins.

I also suspect many coin collectors avoid currency (like me) not because they don't like it or wouldn't be interested. But for the simple fact that they already feel like their plate is full with their coin want list. For some I'm sure, currency may be like a comic book to them. They know there is rare stuff with a lot of value and the designs are beautiful, but it just doesn't grab them like coins. That's kind of the way it is for me too.

Plus the average coin collector has little knowledge or understanding about grading paper, what's available or what's good or bad, let alone values. I'm sure a percentage will always eventually drift that way but it will probably be a small percentage. And coin collectors are a small percentage to begin with anyway.

I hope I haven't downplayed your collection at all. It is awesome. I appreciate it as well. I just can't afford to wade into another collecting area at this time in my life and if I could, I don't know if I'd feel like investing the additional time, right now. Although, like many, my interests tend to change over the years as I get older, so that could change some day. I can't rule it out. HTHs. :smile

Edit: Just thought I'd add that some of it may be the actual metal content of coins. Most people understand that metals can fluctuate quite a bit and based on history, people who were buying gold coins in the 70s, and 80s have seen enormous profits today from those purchases. This probably tends to get more people leaning that way. Same with silver, or platinum. Collecting currency is more like collecting fine art. It may not be for everybody.

 

Thanks for your reply RB, just shows my lack of knowledge about paper. I had never heard of wet and dry inks before. Time to get the book/books and educate myself. I have been on the lookout for a web note for my collection. One last thing, if your frequent pics of your latest "pickups" don't get people drooling, there may not be hope!!!

 

Very interesting viewpoint Vess1 , Thank you!

Regards,

RickieB

 

Hello RickieB,

I agree with Pennywise and vess, collecting metal feels more substantial and it is easy to get started with minimal investment. The difference in ink color or varieties or errors is not as attractive as a nice chunk of silver.

Showing off $20 in $1 Small Notes - the notes may be completely different to the collector but they will have little or no impact to those viewing it that do not understand the often subtle differences. Showing off $20 in different $1 Silver coins has a huge impact even to the casual observer.

Until you go back to the 1930's most notes look like modern notes in design. Once you get to the large size notes the cost is too prohibitive for most collectors that already invest in coins. Even the brown seal and war notes can get pricey. I love these notes but even with a middle class income I can only buy a couple older notes a year and the really rare ones like a decent Chief or Battleship may never be in my collection. I still have a passion for coins so I have to split where I spend my money.

Best Regards ~ Darryl


P.S. I feel my collection is better served having both coins and paper currency. As it improves in the quality of each - it will be something that represents a nice variety of US Money with a sprinkling or world coins and currency. Everyone has different goals and this is what works for me currently but may change as time goes by.

 

So Darryl,

Does this mean that the 656 collection will soon be up for sale?
How common is that compared to the 20 chuncks of silver coins??
I understand about Large Size Notes and their cost...but as I mentioned before, some coins are way up in price as well.
Have you lost interest in PM?

If so...let me know so that I can pick up some of the NY notes you may be willing to let go?

Regards to you friend,

RickieB

 

LOL - I am just trying to explain why I think there is a disparity. I will never give up collecting PM and currently I am trying to buy a BE. I can understand why people choose coins over PM even if I would rather have a nice example of a yellow seal $1 over a common date morgan in XF/AU condition.

 

You have a great collection of notes Darryl....one that any collector would be proud to own! I understand your attempt to explain the disparity as you put it, however, you do know the differences and that is a great insight.
When you go to buy the Black Eagle, make sure you save for a 64 at least, these are still considered pretty common. I know where a 4444 SN is but it is a few grand!
Good to see you here again...and do let us know if you add to the 656 collection!!


Best regards,

RickieB

 

I collect a bit of Paper Money here and there. I'm into any notes below 1934, since I'm more of a Colonial guy. I have a few 19th century notes that I'm proud of and a Gold Certificate here are there. I have many early 1800's notes that I find fascinating.

 

Thanks RickieB - Work in progress! Will do if I pick up anything worth sharing!

BR ~ Darryl

 

i dont think it really has anything to do with affordability. People will spend $20 or more on a cent, but wont spend $10 on a $5 note. They dont think the note will ever carry any premuim, or dont like it, or any number of other reasons. Most believe paying a 100% preimum on a note is a waste, but will spend a 20,000% premium on a penny without a seonc thought... Folks have been collecting coins for hundreds of years. collecting notes is a much newer part of the hobby. Collecting coins is much deeper engrained in our society.

Another aspect i think plays into what folsk collect is the difference in the objects themselves. Coins last 30 years in circulation, most notes last 18 months on average. for the most part, all folks can pull from circulation are the standard FRN. there is NO change or differane in anything out there. on occaision a red seal or silver cert will surface by either being spent or some other miraculous event. Coin on the other hand still ahev silver coinage for past eras to be found. Wheat cents are still out there, and alot of them. different designs on the nickel are out there, barber, buffalo, war time nickles. Quarters have had a huge boost in design changes as did the nickle a few years ago, and the cent now. There is a much larger probability that folks will get into collecting because of the larger percentage of different coinage in circulation. Sure they had changes in the FRN over the years, the colorful $10 and $20.. the upcoming redesigned $100. But those higher denominations is alot to sock away for a new collector. $1's and $2's are what should be redesinged to entice paper money collectors. And yet, here most coin collectors are advocating to abolish the dollar note for a coin - go figure.

In the begining when a person is first startingo uot in collecting, yes cost is a factor when pulling cents from circulation or pulling $1, $2 or $5 from circulation. You can get alot of cents and nickles or any change for a single $5 note. But once collecting is firmly inplanted, a con collector has NO issues spending vast amounts of money for a cent orther small denominated coin.

 

Well...the ratio between people who drive Ferrari's and those who drive Ford's is also probably around 600:1....perhaps there's a connection!

 

For me, it comes down to, do I want to own some gold, or some pieces of paper
If you give me $1000 to spend, I might buy a 1914 $10 or $5 bill, but that might be it
I think that old notes, are very interesting, and those $5 Chiefs, series of 1934, and the 1914 series, are all interesting to me
My thing is, I find what we use today, is just monopoly money, as is the paper used hundreds of years ago, just a piece of paper, with ink, not a whole lot more (Unless gold or silver certificate) but even with those, I'd much rather own the actual metal myself
I love coins, coins are my passion. I have a small paper money collection, and RickieB, you've been nice enough to comment on it
It will never grow to be big, and beautiful, like a collection, such as yours, because I simply don't want to put more money into it, I'd rather put money, into the metals, that are worth money, beyond numismatic value, but also for their metal content
I think the ratio of the paper money collectors, to coin collectors, has a little bit of both, price, and people wanting to have $200 worth of silver, rather than a 1899 silver certificate, with a face value of $1
Those are my thoughts on this

 

Does the value of the silver really make a significant difference between owning an 1899 silver certificate worth $200 or an 1899 Morgan silver dollar?

If the metal content is what makes it interesting, wouldn't it be better to just invest in bullion?

 

Yes it would, my point exactly
That paper won't be worth anything soon
Might be worth a collectors value, but if the economy crashes, or something bad happens to our monopoly money, SILVER AND GOLD will raise and be more valuable
Yes, it would make more sense to invest in bullion
But I don't do anything for an investment, any investment comes second, and is a plus to making me happy
If paper money makes you happy, go for it :high5:

 

I think one thing to point out with this 600:1 ratio is this is a Coin Forum. So, it's not surprising that the majority of the members here collect coins rather than paper money. Now, they are related hobbies so some overlap is expected...but I think that since this is a coin board the paper money collectors are a minority here.

As far as the world as a whole...I think it comes down to cost. I'll bet 99% of the coin collectors here in the US started out collecting Lincoln cents. You can put together a sizable collection out of circulation for very little money...an amount that won't go noticed. Even collecting only out of circulation...paper money is a much bigger investment. Every piece will cost a minimum of $1 and it goes up quickly from there. So, it's more expensive to start out in this hobby. Once you get hooked, cost isn't as important. But, when you are first getting interested in the hobby cost is a big deal. As you move towards high end collecting it becomes just like coins...very expensive. But, I think it's that initial cost hump for the new collector that makes it a harder hobby to get into.

I also feel that there is a knowledge gap. When I started collecting paper, I felt that it was harder to find the information that I needed. Almost as if the paper collecting hobby was more in it's infancy. I think this challenge could also cause the new collector to feel overwhelmed and eventually give up.

 

Hmmm....I guess I never considered the economy crashing so badly that people would need to start melting down 100+ year old coins for the metal content. Guess it could happen though...especially the way things are going lately. Still...doesn't explain why anyone would collect penny's or nickel's though! lol

 

The 600:1 ratio (coin collectors to currency collectors on CoinTalk) is not correct. You are assuming that EVERY CoinTalk member who is not one of the 30 active currency collectors is a coin collector. I'm sure there are many CT members who are not among the '30' but who collect coins & currency or currency only (but to a less conspicuous degree than the '30').

Also, I would be willing to bet that a HUGE portion of the 18,000 CT members are not active members and should not be included in your count of CT coin collectors. A large number of CT members have only one or two posts asking the value of a coin, why their Lincoln Cent has Kennedy's image stamped into it, etc. and have never returned. Those thousands of inactive "members" should not be counted.

My guess is that of active CT members the ratio of coin collectors to currency collectors is closer to 15 or 20 to 1, not 600 to 1.