More self slabbers are being born everyday.

WOW....great answer......Thanks,
Neal

 

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Sorry...forgot to say who I was thanking......NP you answer was very informative..thanks again,
Neal

 

Truth is it's not just slabbing. It's hard to find individuals you trust. There are many out there that act as if they are your 'buddy' but sometimes you find out that they were never your 'buddy' in the first place. The thing is we learn from mistakes. Some cost more than others. That is why it is so imperative to learn & ask around.

Truth is the difference between a Slabbed coin vs a dealer/collector's grade they put on a coin in a 2x2 is you pay for the slab opinion. The 2x2 one is graded for free. Granted the price tag is always based on the what the individual paid for the coin. But you have to send it in to the slab company. ( I know just re-iterated what you said, LOL)

Actually you can imply what ever to 'fake'. So I should clarify what I mean by 'fake'. Mostly I mean ones that look like they are NGC but are not in order to deceive collectors. I also refer to holders that are similar to the slabbed holders but you can open them & change the coin. Granted these can be just called slab like holders but, that's to long. LOL.

I will also admit we've had issues with grading companies in the past. You will see that some grading companies have authorized dealers who can send your coin in for them. Although we are listed with one we no longer do it. Granted the grading company did fire a ton of people after the incident but we no longer send in coins for people. Why? Well, a coin with a huge value was sent in. It came back in a body bag & wasn't even close to being the same coin. So I'll admit I'm prejudice about the faith people put in them.

 

Wow

WOW

 

It takes quite a bit of experience to get to the level where you need neither a TPG's nor Dealer's opinion to decide for certain the true grade of a coin (and in some cases whether it is genuine).

What do you do in the mean time? Buy nothing at the risk of being taken? If you think in 6 months or a year you can become an expert you are mistaken and most likely will be taken. I do not trust dealers by and large, they have no reason to be faithful and fair to me, and I would guess many are neither. They can save the "buddy" act for someone who buys it.

So in the mean time, I guess relying on (one of the three respected) TPGs with all of their unbiased (for the most part) wisdom is essential in the beginning.

 

LOL, houston we have a problem....


I really laughed hard when I read your siggy!

There really is nothing wrong with loving your slabbed coins. There are both plus sides & negative sides to slabs.

 

jgreenhood,
I am an advid collector, I enjoy it. I have been involved as far as I can remember. Like sitting at the dining room table with my father....going to flea markets and show with my dad, and grandfather.......I married my best friend whom is now 30 years in banking....we share this hobbie.....my kids could not care about them....i like to get people involved in collecting. I do'nt mind buying a graded coin if priced right..I will not however send in on of my babies to be graded. Or even worse be re-graded by CAC.......sorry for venting.......and yes houston we have a problem has been said in school,military,fire fighting carrer...I still laugh at it....thanks for your thoughts and helping others
Neal

 

Probably one of the biggest problems is the fact that people are more often than not guided toward learning grading prior to learning authenticating. I do not believe that it is possible to grade a coin without first being able to authenticate the coin.

Even when people are guided to authenticate, they are shown what to "look for" in a counterfeit coin. This is just simply and completely wrong. In order to authenticate, one must know the details of an authentic coin. With some series, that can become outright a life time's work due to all of the dies used in the production of some coins.

So, yes, a TPG could have some value added service in the fact that they guarantee authenticity, but even then you are still holding pure faith in their opinion.

The more of a particular coin you personally see and handle, the more you learn the marks, design quirks, and varieties of authentic specimens. After you learn this, I believe one may be able to adequately grade a coin.

And this process takes quite some time.

So what to do in the meantime? Well, purchase coins, of course! That is the only way to get coins in your hands. Then, you should find people (dealers, "experts", people that are trusted and can give a truthful opinion) and get their advice as to the authenticity of said coins. Then study those coins. Get to know what they look like, quirks in the dies, read up on information about varieties, etc.

Then, once you have some basic knowledge on that series and coin to be able to assess authenticity, get opinions on its grade and actually ask people WHY they grade it such a way and find out what it is they are seeing. Don't just say "Thanks" and leave it be, get their OPINION! This will help you to see what it is others are looking at when they grade a coin.

This is also one reason I see very little value in TPGs. If they cannot even give you the reasons for their opinion, then their opinion means absolutely nothing.

Grading is subject to each individual's opinion. So there is truly no "right" or "wrong" grade for a coin except when the grade is so grossly askew from any accepted standard. This will help you understand the consensus in certain grades.

Just because a TPG grades a coin one way, and an individual grades it another, in no manner implies that the individual is wrong and that the grading gods are correct. It simply means the consensus regarding a specific coin differs from your personal opinion, which is also correct.

These are the things that the individual should be doing "in the meantime" until they are comfortable to make decisions impulsively (at a trade show for instance). Even then, an "expert" will still make mistakes and bad choices. But, that is simply part of our hobby.

Finally, when you are taken or make that bad choice, that is simply part of the tuition in learning about numismatics. Thems the breaks kid!

 

Here is a perfect example of a self slabbing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1892-S-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-PROOFLIKE-UNC-MS-COIN-633_W0QQitemZ150336192956

By what I can tell, that would be body bagged by most TPG's and the ones that would give it a details grade, would give it a AU at best, with a note it had been improperly cleaned. :whistle:

That coin is worth 2 grand at best, not 32 grand. :goof:

Ribbit

 

That coin is a mess, check out the enlarged images. Yikes!

Barely AU is right! It's most likely dipped AND harshly cleaned.

Those types of listings really push my buttons... I almost want to message the seller. lol

 

This is slightly OT but considering it's a counterfeit PCGS slab, technically it's a self slabbing job:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250399642775

It's already been confirmed to be a counterfeit slab (Ron Guth) so the coin in it is most likely a counterfeit and if you look at the seller's store, everything in there appears to be counterfeit.

Ribbit

 

For all, even those who do feel they have the ability to accurate grade a coin, this type of forum is ( at its best) as good as grading by photo that you can get, and its free.

You have to realize that often truth in their eyes may hurt. One must accept the free opinion from others with grace. I rarely respond to "grade this" requests to people who have an attitude with the answers. I really appreciate and try to emulate the responders who take the time to explain their grading or response to a variety/error request. Education is such an important part of the function of the forum, that is how expertise develops.

As an aside, even though I know I could never prove it to a TPG, I photograph each coin I send in, noting with a closeup a distinctive spot or mark. At least that way I can convince myself whether I should make a fuss or not. I know from experience that even a coin returned slabbed often looks like it is a different coin even thought my photos show it is the same

Jim

 

How was it determined to be fake? The cert# (as you know) checks out fine on PCGS. Now you have me worried.

How can you tell if a slab is fake (generally)?

 

I didn't take the time to figure it out, the coin didn't look right and was a commonly counterfeited one and it didn't look the grade and it had that counterfeit "look" about it, so I sent it to Ron Guth and he confirmed it was a counterfeit slab so the coin is most likely a counterfeit also.

Maybe someone will take the time to examine the slab and provide the diagnostics on why it's a counterfeit. :thumb:

Ribbit

 

Oh man, that slab ilooks fine, no issues that I can see. Which means any of us probably have fake slabs in our collection. I was hoping that the fact that this Cert# was valid on the PCGS site and pulls up that exact coin data was proof enough. Who is Ron Guth?

:headbang:

 

http://www.pcgs.com/experts.chtml?task=RonGuth

:whistle:

Ribbit

 

LOL I was going to say that is not even BU so I doubt the Proof Like although I know it's hard to show in pictures.

NP is right you do need to know how to authenticate a coin as well as grade. It's why I don't do the buying. That and others are faster at it too.

Grading & authenticating are your weapons but saddly that link is a clear example of why you need to know your stuff. Granted I can totally understand not second guessing NGC, PCGS or ANAC but Good god that coin is awful! (The Morgan dollar link)

Ok I don't know foreign coins but it looks like an old PCGS slab. The coin is dark but silver does that.

Granted they haven't sold but 61 item's, 100% positive feed back, reasonable shipping rates & a return policy. I don't think 7 days is long but then again I wouldn't buy it cause A I don't want it and B I don't know anything about that particular coin. LOL

 

Ok I took out one of my PCGS slabs that I know is genuine (my '78 CC morgan which has Vams which all match and are not counterfitable)
The reverse of that slab you posted is obviously fake. A true reverse PCGS slab has a sort of hologram on both the words and St. Gaudens image. You just cant get it to show as a solid color no matter what angle you try to turn it. And the St. Gaudens image on that coin is off center compared to mine. So I guess that's it then, check your reverse with PCGS, at least in this case.

I feel better now at least identifying the problem with that otherwise realistic looking slab.

 

Fakers are now using legit #'s and you can only tell if its fake if the submitter paid for the photo thing on a real one and compare. There are also lists of known real #'s used on fake coins.

 

No you can tell because they can't accurately reproduce the hologram on the reverse. Both the Letters and St. Gaudens image are holograms, as is the background on a real Slab. That would take too much effort to reproduce, or pull out of another legitamite slab.