Counterfeits & ANACS

Howdy peeps,

ANACS has adopted a policy of not returning obvious counterfeits back to the submitter:

http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/CounterfeitCoins.aspx

The exception being if authenticity is questionable. I'm not sure when this policy became effective, since there is no date on the memo, but I just found out about it today so I figured some of you may not have known about it either? :goofer:

I think this policy will help to stop counterfeits from being sold as authentic on Ebay, since the Secret Service will be requesting a full refund be given to the purchaser of the counterfeit item and the seller will be flagged in their system, which ain't a monkey anyone wants on their back. :hammer: Furthermore, I think the other reputable TPG's ought to follow suit. :hug:

Ribbit

 

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I think that's a great idea :thumb:, Im sure it will still anger some people though.

 

I could just picture the lawsuits now. I sent them a 1893 S Morgan dollar in uncirculated condition, and they stole it and said it was counterfeit. I want $120,000 for the coin and 50,000 for my pain and suffering.

 

I like the last setence:

"The Secret Service’s ultimate goal is to trace the coin back to the original perpetrator."

Shouldn't be too hard to do nowadays... we all know where most of the forgeries originate.

 

I would think it has to be fairly new. As long as I have known the position of the grading services has been to return even obvious counterfeits on the grounds that they do not belong to them.

 

I would think that permitting the TPG to steal the property of a submitter would expose them to some sort of legal liability. I don't think it is illegal to own a counterfeit coin, and many are collector's items.

One more reason not to use ANACS.

 

Possession with fradulent intent

http://www.bep.treas.gov/document.cfm/18/103

 

I think what they should do is have a COPY stamp and stamp it, then return it. With it being stamped, it complies with the HPA and no laws are being broken and the submitter gets their coin back and it's HPA compliant. :thumb:

As to not using ANACS because they are taking fraudulent coins off the streets, I do not concur. I'll leave it at that since I don't feel like arguing tonight. :goofer:

Ribbit

 

Sorry, I don't feel comfortable with them confiscating material that does not belong to them or with mutilating property that doesn't belong to them either. And if the counterfeits are older they do not have to be marked COPY to be compliant with the HPA. If they want to inform the Secret Service about the coin that might be OK but they should be returned to their owners unmolested.

 

I understand Toad's concern but I'm with Conder on this one.

 

Good idea

 

Interesting. I found some people selling PCGS not genuine 1909S VDB (not cheap for fake) on ebay

Item number: 250398535508

Item number: 270365915109

 

Why is someone sending in an old counterfeit to have it authenticated? :goof: Why? Most likely because someone peddled it to them as authentic and for an authentic price. With the way ANACS is doing it, the person who got swindled gets their money back from the scammer (mostly Ebay scammers) and the counterfeit is taken off the streets.

Maybe you all aren't "dumb" enough to be taken by the scammers but I see hundreds get taken every week, so I applaud ANACS for going the extra mile and helping to remove the numistrash off the streets that has been hurting our hobby and by forcing the sellers to reimburse the buyers, it teaches them not to do it again, for fear of losing even more money.

Ribbit

Ps: What if they single out Chinese sellers only? Would that make you happy? But what about the Americans that are buying the Chinese garbage, as replicas, then peddle them as authentic? I guess you'd rather the sucker who bought it, learn from their mistake by losing several thousand dollars, than to have ANACS help them retrieve their hard earned money.

I am not one that supports stamping COPY on counterfeits but if they are sent in for authenticating, then fraud is a FACT and that lil boogher needs to get stamped and it will never be used fraudulently again! :hammer:

 

Amen

 

I am in total agreement. If ANACS is actually doing something to nail these counterfeiters or their venders, that is more than the FBI is currently doing on their own. The counterfeits are getting so good these days, we should be doing whatever possible to punish the profiteers ruining our hobby.

 

This may be a bad ananlogy but here goes anyway:

I have owned a Harley-Davidson motorcycle since 1973. I know quite a bit about Harleys. I can usually tell the difference between a genuine Harley and a V-Twin knockoff from a distance. Not everyone can tell the difference even if they study the engine carefully.

Suppose you don't know Harleys as well as an expert and you buy what you think is a Harley. It has a big V-Twin engine that looks (to you) just like a Harley. You take your new motorcycle to the DMV to get a tag and title and they tell you that it is not a Harley-Davidson but is in fact a motorcycle built around an S&S V-Twin engine (that looks an awful lot like a Harley engine).

Should the DMV confiscate your motorcycle? Should they stamp it "COPY"?

 

You forgot ot put it in proper context:

If I bought a Harley "knock-off" as a bonifide Harley and paid good money for it, would I want the DMV to confiscate it or stamp Copy on it and get me my money back?

You damned straight I would! The sucker ripped me off and if the DMV will get me my money back and make sure the seller will never use it again to scam someone, I'd be pee'n all over myself.

Ribbit

 

Exactly.

 

As far as I can recall it is not ANACS's responsibilty to stamp copy on the coin, but the responsibitly of the individual who created the coin. ANACS in following the procedure they have outlined is doing nothing more then any other business would be requried to do. Turn the suspected coin over to the Secrect Service who in turn determines if the coin is really counterfit, and then invistigates ALL counterfiting.
Remembering all "US" coins ever minted can still be used today as "legal tender", so a counterfit morgan dollar, be it sold for 8 dollars or 100 dollars on ebay can still be used as a dollar in any store, or deposited in any bank for face value.
In all regards the way I read it ANACS is just following the law as they are written. Now if the other TPG would just do the same, we might actually be able to take a huge bite out of the fake coins flooding the market.

Dave

 

I have never heard of any TPG refusing to return a coin because it was counterfeit. I am not disputing what's read on the website (which is, incidentally, viewable by the authorities), but rather sharing my experience and opinion....Mike