scanning currency and Espon tech support

Very ture, and i unerstand 'some' attampts to be made to thwart they idiocy. But i dont understand why more folks have to deal with the results, then the original offender. let the idiot kids go to juvie or jail if they want to pass off badly scanned currency. Dont make it so the rest of us cant perform legal activities, only to 'try' to stop a few morons from doing illegal things.

Something i think i 'could' live with, is when a scanner scans a currency note, that an invisible watermark is placed on the note. That watermark would then only show when it is printed. But then... it is still legal to actually print currency notes, as long as the correct proceudres are followed ... so not being able to print the note would still inhibit others from legal activities.

my citizen feet certainly are feeling stepped on!

 

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Have you tried turning the note upside down or scanning vertically? I have seen posts on other discussion boards that indicate this worked for them.

 

And my wife was recently asking why I keep that old Canon scanner, never used, down in the basement. It is reserve for when the HP 4370 gives up the ghost.

 

absolutly lol i tried croocked, reveresed, upside down... everything but on edge I even cut strips of paper out and placed them over the places where i can see the Eurion symbols, and on the Canada $5 note, i placed a piece of paper over the foil as well.. the scanner still wont scan them.

I placed an email to Epson tech support last night - apparently, the phone tech support is different then email tech support?! The email i sent asked them why the scanner doesnt let me scan newer world currency, and asked them not to insult me by telling me it doesnt prevent the scanning. I asked them to either help me stop the problem in the scanner i have, or tell me which scanner to get that doesnt have that 'problem'. I 'might' have copped a slightly larger additude then needed, especially when i need their help... but this whole thing is so '1984'!!! Im an epsilon .. just give me my pill.

I have not heard back from them, yet. I dont think i might either. They might just use that email as further evidence that the FBI andsecret service need to visit me - heck, i should have given them my address to make it easier on them. in the end, i am doing nothing illegal or wrong!

I will still make my treck to the local best buy store today.. ibrought my $5 note from canada, my $5 euro note and a 1000 Dinara note from yugoslavia. The 1000 dinara note i know scans. Its the other 2 will be a test. If that is, best buy actually has a scanner hooked up to a pc... im really not sure they ever do.

 

Best Buy results are now in

So my trip to best buy was better then expected. No, not because of the issue at hand, but only because of the cute salesperson So i go into best buy, and im walking around looking at their 'stuff. Now, Epson told me directly that Best Buy was a reseller. I left thinking just how that could be!!!! Granted i have a prejudice against best buy as all they ever have in their store is mid to low grade stuff at high end prices. That aside, i knew that going in.

I walk around all the all-in-ones they have in stock. They had maybe 20. i dont want an all-in-one though. I mean i can buy a cheap scanner for $50-$70, how on earth can a scanner, fax, copier and dish-car-per and home window washer.. all come in this 1 little machine for the same or less??? The answer - serious lack of quality. Im not rich i only wish... So i can only buy in a certain price range. i would rather spend all i can on the 1 item i need, then spend the same amount on 32 flavors, when the 1 flavor i want is now completely crap in quality. So this cute saleperson walks up and asks if she can help, i told her i was looking for a scanner. Now in tru best buy style, she tells me they only carry 1 flatbed scanner - and its sold out. (imagine that ... at best buy ... really now)

I didnt want to ... but i couldnt leave without at least looking at the dreaded all-in-ones. Now for being an Epson dealer/reseller/who knows... i was very surprised to see they did carry 1. thats right ONE epson scanner/fax/copier/anything else thrown in here type thingy. And it cost $69. How on earth could they possibly do that. Must have play-dough innards i thought. Of course i was correct in my earlier assumption that none of the scanners were hooked up to any pc... but i was wrong in thinking i couldnt test them. It seems alot of new scanners dont need pc access, but they do need something. Best buy, in there smart moments, decided to at least power the doo-dad all-in machines. So i placed my $5 canada note on the glass and looked over the buttons. On most of the machines, all it would let me do is copy the image to paper.. i really didnt want to do that, because i think then i 'would' be breaking a law. So i didnt push it. I do have several memory cards on me at all times due tot he devices i carry, but i didnt want to start sticking too many things where they dont belong and attract too much attention. The Espon machine would not scan the note. I do not know if it was because it didnt have a PC access, or not. Several of the HP machines did scan the note. I wasnt able to save it to file, but the preview window on the machine showed the note. I will never buy another HP as they are known for quality... what am i saying - they are not know for anything. The HP machiens took about 15 minutes just to figure out what you want to scan. You can just hit a scan button see the preview and go from there.. nope.. you tell it what your scannign and pick among several preset photo options. 5x7 gets my note mostly on the scan, but alot of wasted space as well. After 20 minutes of messing with the Hp, i moved on.

Best buy it seems didnt have anything of value or of use. Big surprise? nope. I still had time left for my lunch hour, so i hit up the Sams Club across the street - didnt expect anything so i wasnt disapointed. Then i hit the Office Max down the road. Same type of thing as best buy, all they had were all-in-ones machines. Noen of them were powered, but since they had the same machines best buy had, it didnt matter. They did have a Visioneer flat bed scanner. I couldnt test it as it wasnt powered, plugged in to anything, or otherwise in any circumstance where doing anything more then looking at it would make a difference. that was $99. It weas a very quick visit to that store. I then made a last stop at the Target at the end of the strecth of stores. Same as sams clu - no expectations, never disapointed.

in the end, i got a little bit of excersise, and found nothing of value. I might call back Epson to see where they actually have the products for sale, as best Buy just aint it. I could try the local Micro center, but its not nearly as 'local' as the other shop i visited today... that store is about 1 hour or so away. i cant hold my breath about being able to look at a machine there any more then the pictures on the box. So i dont know if i should try to visit it, or just grab up the visioneer and pray that does something for me.

 

If you really need the file in PSD format here's what you do:
(I have done this for a couple of my post of some notes here, but I did already have the program)
Find an old copy of Photoshop CS or CS2 which came with the extra program called ImageReady. You might find a copy on eBay for a decent price; just make sure they transfer the license to you or that it has never been registered.

ImageReady has built in scanner access under the File | Import menu. Any scanner in the past 10 years is accessible via the Twain driver. The Epson scanner software will load, scan the note at any desirable dpi resolution, it will bring it automatically into ImageReady, crop/resize as needed in ImageReady, and then save it as a JPG or PSD file. I can't recall if the PSD can be opened in the full Photoshop program but I don't recall a "you can't do that" error prompt when I tried. But if nothing else you can just open it in ImageReady any time you want and do the basic resize, crop, adjust, resave as another format at anytime but you still have your original uncompressed PSD file as a backup.

So all in all it's not the scanner that's the problem but the software you use.

If you'd like to try a free basic image program try IrfanView which has Twain access but it won't save in PSD format but you can save it in an uncompressed TIFF format and resize, crop, from there. I've used this free, frequently updated program since 1998.

BTW my scanner is an older Epson 3170 model that has more than enough resolution for document scanning.

 

EPSON update

thanks skippy, but the process you mentioned does not work. That was one of the original methods used back in the early days of PS CS, and it worked at some points, but not always. It does not work now at all, at least not for me. I also do not need to scan into the native *.psd PS extension, i only need the jpeg extension. So far nothign has worked.

I talked with some of Epson stech support guys again today. This time my call was elevated to senior techs, because how they put it 'the nature of your usgae is quite unique'. I wouldnt go that far, but i bet its not a call they get everyday - i want to scan money. Of course i had to go round-and-round with them telling them i have been to the rulesforuse website, and that i am following the rules, and its not the website thats causeing the problem, and that it is their scanner. Im still not convinced they are not forwarding all my calls and info to the FBi and secret service

I was put onhold after i told them some of the notesi was not able to scan, this particular call center must be somewhere in Germany or the Euro zone - as they readily had euros available to them. They were able to scan using the scanneri have, at least i think he said they used the same scanner. Int he end, they gave me a process to try once i get home and have access to the scanner. Some process where buttons have to be pressed if they are not, some other buttons not to press if they are, some options to turn on, some to turn off yadda-yadda ect. So, later ontongiht, i will try this elaborate process that invloves me holding that the ctrl button, the escape button, and hitting the enter button 27 times (exaclty) while reciting ... anyone ever watch that Foamy episode, Episode #57 (tech support) :rolleyes? i was going to link to it, but its got bad words

Once i try this process, i will let everyone know if it works, if it doesnt i will no longer have a scanner and i will swear up and down to my insurance adjuster that i really have no idea how that hole got in my wall!

 

Folks keep saying i canot bring images into PS with my scanner. I have said all along i am NOT doing that. I never have, never will or ever want to scan any images into PS. The issue is NOT PS with this. It IS the scanner. I use the scanner software to scan my notes, NOT PS. In no part of my process is PS opened, thought of, or even looked at. so please, stop advising how to or how not to scan with PS. Also, i can scan the US $100 note. Its the notes i have listed previously in this thread i cannot.

UNITED STATES:

That was easy .. all are obeyed at all times

Euro:

Well lets see there.. they use the term 'may be reproduced...'

England

and there.. there too they say 'may be reproduced...'

at all times i obey the law to its full extent.

Here is a scan of the Canada $5 note, that i cant scan. That is all i can scan of the note. Any more, and the scanner kills the scan. I can try it in any rotation, any angle, and either side.

I jumped through all the hoops Epson advised i follow earlier today. As expected, it didnt work. I might try to uninstall the epson driver and see if XP has a default driver i could use... anything but epson.

 

I have an epson V200 PHOTO SCANNER but I don't scan currency only coins. I never encountered a security problem. I scan into MY PICTURES, transfer to PICASA 3 then after editing upload to PICASA Web Site.
My only gripe is that the besst resolution smallest H x L is 0.10in. Can't get smaller no matter what I try. HELP Cents" FG" get very blury and can't be improved much after editing.

 

Did you try folding one in half or covering up half (horiz or vert.)to see which half is responsible? If a half at a time worked, you could just put them back together.

 

I had time to re-read your posts in better detail when I got home tonight and noticed you mentioned you couldn't scan a 2004 $10 US note in the first post. Now it does make me think it might be this specific scanner of yours that is the problem because I was able to scan my 2004 $10 US note as shown in one of my older post: http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t43947/

..with my model of scanner as mentioned in my previous post.

 

I don't know how many scanner manufacturers use their own electronics. I kind of suspect that there are standard chipsets used in the printers. Regardless of who makes them, these chips have been mandated by Big Brother to contain certain pattern recognition features that detect when a piece of currency is being scanned, and to alter the scan when detected.

These chips aren't in the older scanners which should still be able to scan bills without problems. My 3100 series HP scanner has no problems doing this. Additionally, the newer scanners can probably scan older bills than don't have the current security features.

A description of exactly what the security features are that the scanner software looks for is nearly impossible to find. At some time in the past I did read something that I can't find now that described a few of the features. The only thing I remember now dealt with the $20 bills. If you look on the back of the 2004 series bills in the lighter areas you can see scores of tiny 20s printed in yellow. These are arranged in a seemingly random pattern but are actually in a specific pattern that the scanner recognizes.

As alluded to in other posts here, some printer and image processing software contains the same recognition features and will not print images of bills

Unless laws have been changed I think you can print images of bills if you manage to copy them, if they are enlarged in size by at least 50%, reduced in size by at least 25% or printed in black and white at any size.

If you can't scan the bills you want, your only options seem to be to buy an older scanner without the recognition software or photograph the bill and copy it to file.

 

those 'dots' form a pattern often called the 'EURion' pattern, after the Orion star pattern in the sky. There is a post about it here on CT but its always easier to click links so there is the wiki page talking about it

Unfortunately, the EURion pattern is not whats preventing the scans, at least not completely ... well, possibly not. There are notes WITH the pattern that scan just fine. From some of the newer posts on the subject that i found on the net, nobody seems to know just yet what it is. Some folks have looked at the different color shifts onthe notes, looked for watermarks or other patterns... so far, nothing has been found. It could also be that the notes with the pattern that do scan ... dont have the pattern 'just right', so it scans anyway... that i dont know - but it is a possibility.

I have an HP all-in-junk at home as well as my epson. I bought the HP first. The scanner died... well, it scans, but after every scan, you have to power down the printerand turn it back on again and only then will it scan again. But when the scanner funciotn died, the printer part still worked so we kept it and bought the flatbed. Out of curiosity, i tried the HP lasy night to scan the Canada note and the Eruo note.. they both scanned just fine. I might buy an HP all-in piece of bloop, and buy a flat bed scanner as well. At yesterdays Best Buy test, the junky HP's did seems to preview the canada note with no problem. So buying an HP as a backup ONLY for those notes not scannable by the better machines ... At least that way, i 'might' be able to get past this issue on any newer scanners.

The real 'trick' here now.. convincing the wife we really do need both

 

DJ, sorry to dig up an old thread (and possibly a painful one), but I've recently run into another situation where you or someone who contributed to this thread may have some ideas. As a photographer, I end up in discussions of copyright theft a lot, and one thing that would be cool is to be able to put whatever "trick" is causing scanners to catch and not scan banknotes, into photo prints. For example one could incorporate Eurion into one's logo in the corner of a print, if that would cause a scanner to reject it.

Have you found any more information regarding what in the banknotes is causing your scanner to reject the newer notes?

Dave

 

Some technical info here...not enough to really know what they are scanning for yet though...
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2000036785&IA=US1999030217&DISPLAY=DESC

 

Thanks for the link. Here's another one that gets tantalizingly close to an answer

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/projects/currency/

Dave

 

very nice links! i have known for a while that the Eurion is not the only factor stopping scanners from scanning currency, or as the one site put it, it may not even BE a factor. I have also known for a while that the culprit scanners use is a watermark of some sort, although i was under the impression it was 'hidden' in a specific color wavelength. The one site stakes claim to it being hidden in a certain 'histogram' characteristic, although identical histograms dont share the scanner block. I think the Histogram theory holds weight, although i still believe a color wavelength is being used either by itself or in combination of somethign else. try scanning a note while completely blocking certain colors wavelengths... i promise the results can be amazingly different then what they eye sees on the paper note!

and no, Dave, its not really a sore subject, it actually a good idea to keep the conversation going so as new theories and finds are ... well, found, they can also be shared while it is very frustrating to not be able to perfrom 100% legal activities, i am also up for any challenge. (ive never stated to be a 100% LAW ABIDING CITIZEN!!!) And if folks want to ban legal activities, then the more of an outlaw i shall become!

For the moment, i am looking into a new flatbed scanner. I cant believe how difficult they are to find in stores. All that are sold these days are all in 1 pieces of junk! I am sorry, but it they sell flatbeds for $200 or more, how can they sell a gadget that scans, copies and prints for $75?? I have a possible answer to that... they make them all in 1's out of recycled baby bottle inserts and recycled baby diapers... both uncleaned.... sorry for the mental image but that what the all-in-1's turn out to be! I kep my Euro and Canada $5 notes handy anytime i go to a store to test a scanner. I also have a copy of the legalese saying its legal to scan ... just in case anyone from management inquires as to what on earth i was doing lol

On the subject of trying to protect printed images would be almost impossible. Media placed ont he internet can be hjacked no matter what you to do prevent it. This is why i use watermarks. Let them take and share my images Printed media would be impossible to protect. Take a note that we cant scan. Find that note in a magazine, and scan it... it scans fine. The printing of the image onto the paper does not incooporate the 'tricks' used when printing currency. I admit i have not tried every note that uses the technology to prevent scanning. I also cannot remember which note it was that i did try. Here is a test we can try as a test. If you have a Euro Note, 1 that you know folks like me cant scan.... Scan the note and email it to me. I will print it, and then try to scan it. If i can scan the print of your scan, then i think a point will be made. If however, i still cannot scan that page... then you might be onto something.

That something might not get you far though. If you read through the page you linked to. It says

With that quote, i would be willing to bet Digimarc also does not share the 'code' with the printers of world banknotes. If they had, i am sure it would have ..'leaked' ... to the world audience.

for now, this saga continues.

 

I'd like to take you up on that experiment if it's not too much trouble. Do you have a high quality photo printer? If not, I'll send you a printed version, rather than a digital file. Only one remaining issue... I don't have any Euros or Canadian notes... are there any US notes that you can't scan, or possibly one of the newer African issues that have all sorts of anti-counterfeiting schemes on them that don't scan?

Dave

 

No trouble at all. and no, i dont have any high quality nothing And for me to use a printer like that would deminish the experiment to some extent. We want to use 'average Joe' stuff to see if the normal person comes across printed media, if the anti-counterfeiting devices work. To use a high quality printer would start excluding certain groups of people ... those are my thought anyhoot. i dont seem to have any of the notes you mentioned. I could send the $5 canada note that i have trouble with. and we could to this little test with that.