Julia Domna Die Match

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Numisnewbiest, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    I know it's a common coin, with absolutely terrible legends, but I've always regretted selling my Julia Domna because I loved that portrait - I think it's a more realistic impression of a 50-something Syrian woman than the usual "porcelain doll" portraits of her.

    I never thought I'd see that portrait again...but I found it in an upcoming auction, and not only that specific portrait, but it's also a complete die match, front and back.

    I did this quick video overlaying the two (I didn't bother with a video showing the reverse - it's a die match, too). The beginning image is the coin I once owned, and the second is obviously the one in the upcoming auction:

     
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  3. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Yep, a die-match alright.

    I don't think this one is a die-match to yours but it looks like the product of the same die-engraver:

    Domna VENVS GENETRIX denarius no cupid.jpg
    Julia Domna AD 193-217, issued under Caracalla
    Roman AR denarius, 3.42 g, 19.7 mm, 6 h.
    Rome, AD 216
    Obv: IVLIA PIA FELIX AVG, bare-headed and draped bust, right
    Rev: VENVS GENETRIX, Venus enthroned left, right hand extended, holding scepter in left
    Refs: RIC 388c; BMCRE 23B, Cohen 212; RCV 7106; Hill 1536; CRE 390.
     
  4. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    The portrait and legend on the obverse of yours sure look very similar, you're right. Mine had a Vesta reverse - here's a stacked picture, with my coin on top, showing the matched reverse:

    domna.jpg
     
  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Born c.160, Domna would have been ~33 when her first coins were made and died ~57. One might expect a certain amount of change over that period. The strange part to me is that some of her earliest coins make her look older than some a bit later ("porcelain doll" portraits ). Perhaps it took a while for the mint to become accustomed with her appearance???
    rl5570b00040lg.jpg rl6020bb0515.jpg

    The die-to-die variation in her portraits makes truth less certain in my mind.
     
    Restitutor, PeteB, Orielensis and 7 others like this.
  6. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    This may be a dumb question, but would she (or her husband) ever step in and order a change in a coin portrait to better suit their tastes, such as making her look younger?
     
  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Here's my example of your coin:

    Domna VESTA standing with Palladium and scepter denarius.jpg
     
  8. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    After the legend engraver was disciplined for his earlier work (on my coin)!
     
    Roman Collector likes this.
  9. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    Julia Domna's portrait on coins issued under Caracalla (211–217 AD) differs quite strongly from her portrait on coins issued under Septimius Severus (193–211 AD), the most notable change being the hairstyle. She often also looks older. Here are two coins for comparison:

    Portrait type 1:

    Rom – Julia Domna, denar, Venus v. hinten (neuestes Foto).png
    Julia Domna, Roman Empire, denarius, 193–196 AD, Rome mint. Obv: IVLIA DOMNA AVG; bust of Julia Domna, draped, r. Rev: VENERI VICTR, Venus standing with back turned, head r., holding apple in r. hand and palm in l., resting l. elbow on column. 18mm, 4.13g. Ref: RIC IV Septimius Severus 536.

    On my example of portrait type 2, the engraver rendered the "knot" at the back of Julia's head quite prominent. @Roman Collector's example shown above is more characteristic:

    Rom – Julia Domna, Denar, Diana.png
    Julia Domna, Roman Empire, AR denarius, 211–217 AD, Rome mint. Obv: IVLIA PIA FELIX AVG; bust of Julia Domna, draped, r. Rev: DIANA LVCIFERA; Diana, draped, standing l., holding a torch in both hands. 19mm, 3.09g. Ref: RIC IV Caracalla 373A.


    Here is a short and informative video explaining the "younger" and "older" portrait type of Julia Domna and recreating the later hairstyle, which must have required a great deal of experimentation and painstakingly detailed research:
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  10. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    Great portrait of Domna. On one of the coins, the bottom left border is off the flan, on the other the top right border is off the flan. Together the border is complete, and you're able to see the details of the entire design, a benefit of finding die links.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
    Numisnewbiest likes this.
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    That is a question many of us have asked but for which there is no certain answer. I am sure that there was 'guidance' but whether that came from the ruler or a mid level manager will be hard to prove. Many dies for Julia from this period are rather horrid but whether this means they lacked talent to choose from or simply did not care is also hard to tell.
     
  12. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    Mine was given a date to around 214 AD, so she would've been about 54 years old when my coin was minted. All things considered with Caracalla, I wonder what influence he may have had on coins of his mother, and how she was portrayed.
     
  13. Shea19

    Shea19 Well-Known Member

    Here's my example of the type. Not a die match to yours, but definitely a very similar portrait...probably done by the same person.

    A6B79400-98AE-4B1B-9F73-A932319E5D23.jpeg
     
  14. curtislclay

    curtislclay Well-Known Member

    Dates of the three types with PIA FELIX obv. legend that are shown above:

    DIANA LVCIFERA: Mid-212 to early 214
    VESTA standing: Early to end 214
    VENVS GENETRIX seated: Mid-215 to early 217
     
  15. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    Well, I'm pretty happy - I got "my" Julia Domna denarius back in today's Tauler & Fau auction, and for half of what I'd paid for the first copy I had. Naturally, coming from Spain, I suppose I won't see it until next Christmas, but at least it's mine.
     
    Everett Guy likes this.
  16. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    IV-I Julia Domna 585 Juno sest 8-232 dirty small.jpg Cleaned the dirty sestertius a while ago and discovered one of the best Domna potraits IV-I Julia Domna 585 Juno sest 8-232 dirty small.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  17. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    E2D09DAE-D08D-48AE-BAC9-A748EE87F88F.jpeg
    Here’s mine. I’m not feeling very original right now.
     
  18. Everett Guy

    Everett Guy Well-Known Member

    The only coins I am still waiting on from last year are from spain.
     
  19. Everett Guy

    Everett Guy Well-Known Member

    I have a barbarian copy with the different hair style. It makes for a crazy story. I need to dig it out to see the reverse
     
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