Cleaning is a NO NO, it's important to differentiate between cleaning and conservation. After a lot of experimenting with VERDI-GONE™, I finally felt confident enough to attempt conservation on my 1909-S VDB. It paid off well for me.....see pics.
Death of a wheat Very good! I think a learned a little also tonight. I have a 1913D wheat that had thses 3 black spots on the obverse. They looked exactly like someone took a black felt pen and dotted it 3 times. I figured I'd try the lighter fluid deal then rince w/distilled water. That part actually went ok. No discoloration, still looked good, except for the 3 spots, so I rubbed, and rubbed, and rubbed with a fluid soaked old T-shirt. Better now, but, those spots remained. My fingers hurt and were dried out after about 2 hours of this. So, I thought, this isn't getting me anywhere. I turned to my container of "E-zest". I dipped quickly. I dipped a little more. Still the spots, so, I rubbed a little, then a little more. Well...I finally rubbed them enough to expose 3 little nicks, washed it under warm soapy water, like the directions on E-zest said. End result..I have a 1913D wheat with 3 little nicks where the spots used to be, and the color, or colors, I would describe as being a combination of light brown, orange, and darker brown, and, very, very dull finish. But the spots are gone! (mostly) Moral of the story and lesson learned.., leave the spots alone. Thankfully, is was only a semi-uncommon wheat that paid the price. I know...you all told me so.:rolling:
Tom this sounds like stuff I would have tried 6 months ago. I have learned a lot on this forum and paid some expensive mistakes. Blue Ribbon "Coin Conditioner" will often remove spots you described. Google it- their are still places that sell it online, though it's officially banned due to being a carcinogen. Thads Veridigone it a virtual cure in my opinion all for verdigris which may be what you described as well. Private mail him and he can sell it to you. I would highly recommend it. I would have saved my 09 S VDB had I known about it. I am soaking a messed up 1914 D currently and the spots are totally disappearing. When done I will do before/after photos. This coin was hairlined as well (from scrubbing prior to my ownership) and now you can't see the hairlines, though I can't explain why. BTW, the strong rubbing you described on this coin, low value or not, will most definitely hairline the coin- cause parallel scratch marks. This is a bad thing in numismatics. E-zest is a "dip" and doesn't not generally look good on coppers. If it's a worn copper it tends to cause the coin to look really bad- harshly treated. Old/worn copper coins oxidize and are not natural when the look the orange/pink colors that these dips turn them into. Some people greatly dilute these dips with DS water and do on MS coins, though I have experimented on low value MS coins and they never look right. This is an art that is difficult. I sympathize with your desire to fix your coins, as I struggle with dirty ugly coins, with eye appeal problems. 90% ++ people on this site will make weird faces and rant, you shouldn't do anything that you have thus described so far which maybe reason for not a lot of posts. Your learning, but like I said above, I would stick with Veridigone for the most type problems you get on coppers and could practice removing grime/dirt with a fresh green rose thorn. I place coin in an Intercept brand 2 x 2 holder to stabilize, hold loope with one hand and holder with same hand, and thorn with the other. I do under 20 x magnification. As I said earlier you will scratch coins, invariably, with this method until you get good at it. Would not use Vedigone to remove grime and dirt. Grime and dirt have not reacted with the coin, generally and can be removed by mechanical friction. Verdigris is a reaction of contaminants with copper. This can only really be removed chemically. Interestingly, I have removed verdigris with long- like 2-6 months soaks in mineral oil and a rose thorn. The metal layer is usually gone underneath if it wasn't too deep and there is a remaining spot. Remove with multiple xylene soaks, rinse liberally with distilled water. Very easy to drop coins in this process. Do over carpeted area or be extremely careful. I have droped coins and this is another painful lesson. I think you will get a lot more out of xylene than lighter fluid with no harm to the coin. Xylene is generally considered safe for copper to remove oils and organic contaminants. PURE acetone as well. Let it evaporate in a dish and see if residue left. Then it's not pure. Nail polish remover is not pure- has toulene and other products that discolor copper weird colors. Xylene smells bad, so use a carbon filter mask. If you look up cleaning you on this post, so many good debates will come up and you will learn a lot. Also Collectors Society on the NGC boards has some really great posts by some pretty experience people in my opinion :high5::high5:
Thanks for your thoughts Boss!. Yeah, I know the coin is basically ruined. I will save it as a reminder of what NOT to do. I will experiment with xylene and acetone as well, and maybe the Verdigone as well as I have a few large cents that would look really nice it it weren't for the green puke all over them. Strangely, it wasn't looking bad until E-Z-Est got hold of it. I know most frown on cleaning and I now better understand why. I know I'll never try anything with any coins that I am not willing to potentially sacrifice. I do have the goal of getting good enough to eventually be able to get as good at this as my buddy claims to be, hopefully though, not at the expense of many good coins. I started collecting and decided that I want a variety of coins, and more versus less in quantity. I've spent nearly a thousand dollars on EBAY over the past three weeks or so I have a pretty good amount of varied coins, most of which folks here would consider below their acceptance level I suppose. I do have a few more higher dollar ones, but I generally have a hard time spending large amounts on one or two or five or six coins. That said, I don't want all junk either.I figure a few decades from now, when I hand them over to my 8 year old son, I'll have acquired enough of a variety and value for him to enjoy. I just hope I don't destroy most of them along the way. Peace, and thanks again for your time.:smile
Tom, I have found I like to spend more on high grade coins (holdered) say for my registry sets and also AU level coins for albums. The low end stuff I am not interested in the more I collect. I would take a Fine 1922 plain however all day long. When I first started I bought a lot of lower end stuff. This of course is limited by funds and desire of each person. Glad my responses helped you. I feel for you because most will shoot you down with the methods you've tried but I have been to that side of the street and still go there for fun.
Thanks again Boss. I'm gettin' EBAY'd out anyway. I think I've bought enough to stare at when I get the feeling. I go to my local coin shop almost every week now and buy something of higher value (what I can afford), none in the hundreds of dollars yet though, but I can see it progressing to that if I don't snap out of it.Peace P.S. all I don't try and clean every coin, nor do I plan to. I just want to learn how, in case I want to.
IMO you should never rub anything on a coin. Cleaning copper coins basically never ends well. Expensive or rare copper that needs conservation could be sent to NCS. If you lighten the color of a circulated cent, then it will be ruined. If you change the copper color, then the coin will always look like it has been messed with. Leaving residues on the coins can cause spotting & discoloration over time. If you limit your fluids to Acetone and Blue Ribbon, then your copper coins may survive for future generations to enjoy. Very best regards, collect89
PS I will call by lighting fluid buddy tomorrow, and tell him you all said he's wrong. (he won't believe it like it but, I'll tell him:loud:
Update. Called him..in a nutshell, he basically says you're all wrong, says he's done it for 30 years and sold many coins to "experts" , blah,blah,blah. So I'll settle on a definate maybe on the lighter fluid subject. Besides, with all my "junk" coins, what does it really matter anyway? LOL Peace
and I'm speaking about already circulated coinsAlll right. Been doing a lot of reading and I believe I llhave finally reached my own conclusions about cleaning which I believe accurately reflect the consensus and to be the correct conclusions. 1. First...should you clean a coin? Very, very generally, the answer is no. More importantly..the reasoning. The "purists" believe this because "most" people don't know how to, or think they they know how to, then wind up scratching or otherwise messing up said coin. Fine. Granted. True to a point but a bit misleading, which ends up discrediting the source that originally told you that "you should never" do so. The fact is that coins, not high MS or proof) can certainly be and are cleaned routinely by people who "have the knowledge" and those who don't. Dipping, soaking, rinsing in selected substances DOES NO HARM IF DONE CAREFULLY. Matching the correct substance with the correct type of metal coin is key. How long, don't rub, etc, are also important. Circulated coins are just that...CIRCULATED, and circulated, means passed around, carried in pockets, dropped at the beach, or in the park. It can can be done and it is being done, every day, and as long as oyu know the proper procedure for doing so, cleaning cause no problems, and may improve it's "eye appeal" (which is a feature to evaluate when grading said coin. If one can improve "eye appeal" without damage, one has just "upped" the value of their coin. This idea that circulated coins somehow become "magically" dubbed "a worthy collectable coin" because it's now in a 2x2 or other holder, and henceforth, now, any touching, sneezing on it, not maintaining humidity control, will cause "harsh damage" is poopoo. Plain and simple. Careful dipping (no rubbing) can/is done routinely. So to surmise, no you shouldn't, but, yes you can. Kinda like checking out a ladies yum yums. We brought up and taught not to look, but we do anyway, and then pretend we don't. 2.) If people would just post the "proper" methods of cleaning coins, instead of reading the riot act to those who might want to try, perhaps instead of ruining the coin by "experimenting" with ideas, might actually be able to safely clean a coin, thus saving it and sending into history and onto it's next owner in fine shape versus ruined ignorantly resulting from information with held from the "purists". Share the proper ways/method of doing so versus "damning them to hell". I think this is where the disconnect comes from between the "purists" and the logical 3. Bottom line, clean away, and if you do it correctly, you may have even improved your coin. Do it poorly, and you may have ruined your coin. Oh and one final note, if I find a booger rubbed into my coin, I'm going to clean it. You "purists" want the booger to stay the I guess. 4..Finally!! LIGHTER FLUID DOES IN FACT WORK VERY NICELY!!! I rinse it with distilled water and blot dry the coin, and it looks maaavellllous!! One would never know (that includes you "purists"). Still has good luster, nice even toning, and no dirt! Trick is.....not too long. (kinda like playing cards too long-Bob Seger). So relax all you future cleaners. It shouldn't be as taboo as we were all led to believe. Clean away! Correctly!! and enjoy your collection! Sheesh...I can't believe it took me so much reading and reading and reading to discover a simple answer to an otherwise simple question. Minus all the boloney. Can you clean coins? answer should be yes. :computer:
See my previous posts, I tried to tell them all If people would just post the "proper" methods of cleaning coins, instead of reading the riot act to those who might want to try, perhaps instead of ruining the coin by "experimenting" with ideas, might actually be able to safely clean a coin, See my previous posts on coin cleaning, I tried to tell them all when I first got here but did not get very far. The fact is: All dealers I know (and it's a bunch) will attempt to clean, conserve, or stabilise coins form time to time. Coin Cleaning is the least understood topic of coin collecting because of so many misinformed ideas and adherence to old worn out prejudices. New persons do not need to find out about coin cleaning (like I did) from the subtle winks and nods of more seasoned collectors making them feel like they are stupid or something. The truth about any subject is better than a pack of half-truths perpetuated by people who see the world as having "black and white" answers to anything. Finally, if you can retrieve a coin from the bottom of the ocean after 150 years, have it conserved and then graded by the holy grail of graders PCGS as mint state 65 why can you not loosen some grit or grime on a 19th century silver or copper coin to improve it's appearance and help preserve it? We owe it to all new people in this hobby to tell them the truth about coin cleaning the first time, every time and not this flem-flam ideology of "oh, we don't clean coins ever for any reason period" type of mentality. New people are our hobbies future - what they need is the truth. What they don't need is to be treated like they are idiots to begin with and then and only then will we tell them the truth after they figure out all the above.
Then tell them the truth, because you cannot do what you claim above, unless the coin is gold. ONLY with gold is that possible.
I was not referring to gold myself, but I agree with the writer. Circulated coins (what most people refer to when asking about cleaning I believe) can most definitely be cleaned. I much more appreciate the truth than the "don't play with fire, you "might" get burned attitude. Must be some unwritten rule not to tell them anything , or be very vague to newcomers I guess. Silly...makes one want to go to more "honest" sources..
