ok, saw some ngc and anacs labeled pf, that are really ultra cameo, or cameo

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by john65999, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. john65999

    john65999 Well-Known Member

    so, if one sees a coin in a slab, say from anacs, or ngc..and it just says pf67..yet the coin is definately a cameo, or dcam, or ultra cam... why would this be?? was there a time when they did not list ultra, cameo, etc., or is it just a mistake of the graders...thanks for the help...
     
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  3. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I have a question. I'm being honest. What's the difference between the Two ?Please Provide Pics and explain what's what .
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    There was a time when certain types did not get those designations. For example, this proof 2c piece I used to own was pretty deserving of the CAM designation, I think (not that you can tell from this photo), but was holdered in the early 2000s, before PCGS started giving that designation to any 2-cent pieces. Or so I believe.

    [​IMG]

    This old avatar picture of it I used to use gives a better idea of the contrast, tiny though it is:

    [​IMG].


    At other times you can have a coin that looks full CAM or DCAM but didn't make the grade on the slab label. This can happen when there are small frost breaks in certain areas. Most or even almost all of the coin's devices can have the frost and the contrast... except for one small area. I think that can hold a coin back.

    Sal- here you go.

    In a nutshell, you've got three tiers of proof designations. It's all about the contrast between the fields and the devices.

    (*Note that the abbreviations used by different TPG services can vary slightly. For example, NGC uses "PF" for proof instead of "PR", and "UCAM" for "Ultra Cameo" instead of "DCAM" for "Deep Cameo".)

    Basically, you've got three tiers of contrast.

    1. Brilliant Proof (no suffix- in other words, "a plain old proof"), which is often flashy and can have quite deep mirrors, but little to no contrast between the fields and the rest of the design elements.

    (NGC PF65 RB)
    *This particular coin does have a suffix after the grade (RB for Red Brown), but that has to do with the color of the bronze and nothing to do with the proof contrast. It is a basic proof and not CAM or DCAM.
    [​IMG]

    2. Cameo Proof (-CAM suffix), which has contrast between the design elements and the fields, much like a cameo carving does (hence the name).

    (PCGS PR65 CAM)
    [​IMG]

    3. Deep Cameo or Ultra Cameo Proof (-DCAM or -UCAM suffix), which has very strong cameo contrast and a "caked on" frosty appearance. Some collectors also unofficially refer to these as "black and white" proofs because of the sharp contrast, as you can see here on this modern San Marino coin.

    (PCGS PR69 DCAM)
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Generally because its not and the picture is just making it look that way
     
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  6. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Some coins miss the designation because one side of the coin holds it back. It takes both sides for the services to show it on the holder.
    Not talking down to anyone, just thought that some new to this might not understand what it takes.
     
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  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    And that's your answer John.

    Basically, when it comes to whether or not a coin is deemed worthy of the CAM or DCAM designation it's a matter of degree. The cameo effect may well be present on a coin, but it just doesn't quite measure up. There may be a tiny flaw that holds it back or the frost just isn't quite thick and heavy enough to get the either designation. And that, how thick and heavy the frost is, is also the difference between CAM and DCAM. With CAM it just doesn't quite get there, with DCAM it does.
     
  8. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Back in the day.... I was taught to refer to these as “frosted proofs”. That’s still the only terminology that makes sense to me!
     
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  9. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Neat coins and positive opinions, thank you.
     
  10. john65999

    john65999 Well-Known Member

    i will when i get them in hand, but to explain, the coins both say pf67, or pf68, in that price range they are 50.00 pf67 cameo, or pf67 ultracameo are two grades higher and several times the value, the coins in question appear to be full cameo, or deep cam, yet are labeled as a shiny normal proof, if you do not know the difference in grades i cannot explain it better...john
     
  11. mike estes

    mike estes Well-Known Member

    just like SensibleSal66 said: what's the difference?
     
  12. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan 48-year collector Moderator

    Good heavens, I spent nearly half an hour working on Post #3 above, typing a reply and finding pictures, all to explain the difference. Did you not read it at all, or not just not understand it?

    I even linked to a page on the NGC website, if my explanation wasn't good enough.

    Maybe you only read as far as Sal's post and not as far as my reply in the next post, I guess.
     
  13. john65999

    john65999 Well-Known Member

    look at lordmcorvan's post on herre
     
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  14. john65999

    john65999 Well-Known Member

    I HAVE BOUGHT SOME AND THEY DEF ARE CAMEO, or at least a + is deserving...
     
  15. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    RWB has discussed an written expensively concerning such designations, and I recall member physics commenting about the subject. Maybe their comments can add to the knowledge base, separate from TPG explanations.

    A member here mentioned above, the term frosted proof. That is how I also described (and still do) such coins. I do understand times have changed and market driven designations are used now that were never used in the past.

    To me, a proof is a proof, as a collector, and I acknowledge that I don't really consider investment gain or loss based on a designation, because a very nice example of a coin is all I care about. I realize that is not the same criteria for everybody.
     
  16. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Yes?
     
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