A "super fake" 1884-S Morgan$?

FYI: Concerning fakes. There WAS a company in Springfield, MO that is now (thankfully) out of business but his family has put the entire remaining collection up for bids by a local auction company. ALL BUYERS BEWARE the company was known for less than ethical behavior and he himself purchase many fakes and they are now on the internet being auctioned off. My only suggestion is if you run across the phrase "all coins sold as is where is" be very careful.
Semper Fi
Phil
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My question would be, " Why would a Branch Mint send an already cracked and cracking Die to another Branch Mint"? Take the 1878 VAM 44 or 44A. How long did the die last after cracking? Or the 1878 VAM 9. It is suspected to have failed after producing around 300 coins. Let us look at the 1896-o micro o. Yet PCGS originally graded and authenticated this variety. One wonders how a die from 1899-o micro o could have been used in 1896. One can see the 1900-o or 1902-o micro o's but not the 1896-o micro o. What die pairings logically cannot exist? One wonders if the grading services actually determine authenticity each time by the die characteristics of a coin in any denomination? You have brought up a very interesting question. It is a good reason to buy the book before you buy the coin. I'm sure there are counterfeiters out there trying to figure out how to fool the coin collector. Another aspect would be to trace back the history of the counterfeit coin. When did it first come on the market. Who was it purchased from? Who did that person purchase such a valuable coin from? As the young lady pushing a stroller with a child inside tells the pawn shop, "I got this coin from my grandfather". Or in one of my cases, " we found this box of coins in the house we bought". The 35 coins were all altered from original coins to make into valuable coins such as 1877 Indian head cents made from 1879 Indian cents. They were eventually sent to ICG to be encapsulated "For Educational Purposes". It's important to be a happy reference reader and study die characteristics of the coins you want to collect. One can learn a lot from the many coin experts on Coin Talk.

 

Question, is the counterfeit Morgan magnetized? Very informational post, thank you.

 

No, it is a "super counterfeit", so it was struck on a 90% silver planchet that would meet spec on an original coin.

 

John, you know I always love your posts about these very deceptive counterfeits. Almost all of them would have fooled me, including this one. Fortunately, it's a key date, and I collect primarily by type. There are a lot fewer fakes of generic type coins than there are of key dates, I would guess.

I don't mean to start anything by naming "He Who Shall Not Be Named" here, but the luster on that coin reminds me a lot of one of Dan Carr's satin finish coins.

Consider me fooled. The worst part is that the thing that would have attracted me to that coin (the cool obverse die crack) is one of the things that gives it away as a fake.

That half reminds me of an SLQ I have. Everything looks perfect on it, except the date: it just says 192. I bought it as a curiosity from someone who said that Jay Kline once owned it. Everybody I've ever shown it to is completely baffled by it. PCGS sent it back and basically said "we don't know what this is, either."

I'll see if I can get a pic of it up here sometime.

I went through every 1884-S on eBay certified and graded AU58 or better, and couldn't match it either. Then, I went to PCGS CoinFacts and looked at 1884-CC. Three of the first 4 listed there had the exact die crack I mentioned would be the thing that interested me.

You think that was done on purpose? I've always thought die cracks couldn't really be replicated on a die struck fake. Even if they could be, you could end up with a die with a reduced lifespan. Bare minimum, when the die cracked further, it probably wouldn't crack the same way as the original die, unless the original was a very late die state, such that there aren't really any more advanced die state coins available.

 

The counterfeit die is not cracked, it only has the impression of the die crack from the donor coin. That is the reason it appears more severe than '84-CC VAM-7A examples.

 

Yeah, I get that. The CNC basically cut the die crack into the design, just way too deep. What I meant was the die is probably still weakened by it, and it will definitely crack eventually in a way that's not seen on authentic coins.

 

Do we know this is a struck counterfeit and not a sandwich coin?

 

I assumed it was by the article line "obviously the coin that served as the model for this counterfeit’s obverse" referring to the 84CC VAM-7A but I see your point. It it is a bit vague as to whether struck or sandwich.
Any idea on the reverse origin?

 

Thank you jtlee321. Happy and safe holidays.

 

The surfaces on the bust first set off warnings for me.

Interesting the Vam 7 obv has been used for counterfeits before this time. Years ago there were fake 1884 dollars (can't remember which mint but they weren't CC) on the market that were identified as fakes by that same die gouge.

 

Doing a little research I realized the NGC article was written back in 2010 (https://www.ngccoin.com/news/articl...0UlvEZmSfTXOh8Ns27NXXeuffYeSXBchZBGCUj5x_r12I) and that this topic had previously been posted here back in 2017 https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1884-s-bu-morgan-super-fake.297320/page-3

So, apparently not new news to many!

 

About 15 years ago, I bought a NGC certified set of 3 Morgan Dollars, 1882CC, 1883CC, and 1884CC. It is/was a reputable company that I had bought gold coins. I paid about $1,200 for them. The set is called "The Wild West Collection". It was graded by NGC, MS65. I didn't know if it was one of a kind or one of many. Looking at the Red Book, it looks like I may have broken even. Thanks.

 

Good eye.

 

Keep in mind the reverse is counterfeit also. This counterfeit reverse die could have been used to create other and different dated counterfeit die pairs.

 

Has anyone attributed the reverse die?