Coin Grading Standards by TPG

There is no logic in your statement at all but

"""Your incessant criticism of TPG's is sounding more and more like the griping of a dealer that wishes he could grade his coins and charge what he wants. In other words, you don't like the fact that they take money out of your pocket. This is precisely why TPG's are a good thing. They have no vested interest in the final grade of the coin making their determination unbiased."""

This is precisely why TPG's are a good thing. They have no vested interest in the final grade of the coin making their determination unbiased.

There is no logic in your statement at all but I respect your opinion - all I want people to do is learn to think!
If you want to study logic then lets go,,, lets take a look at your statement.

They have no vested interest in the final grade of their product? They have every vested interest in the final grade of their product - that's why they are in business.
Please think about your operative words here.
They, No Vested Interest, Final, Grade, Their, Determination, Unbiased.
Their in absolutely no logic in your statement under any circumstances. Do you not think for a minute they, like every other business has a few MBA's on staff slithering around snakes in the grass with charts and graphs and business plans designed to make more money? How do they make money they grade coins and cater to customers, right? Is not the question that is bantered around there each day, "how might we give a few more MS-70's on Silver eagles to ABC coin company because he's gonna stop sending us monster boxes if we don't". "Look you guys I just got off the phone with him and he ain't happy with his last group he just got back" - you surly must know this happens every day, in every way to the "big three" -and you say, "They have no vested interest in the final grade of the coin making their determination unbiased. - The final grade of every coin is their business.
Please, for my sake and the sake of others, (and yourself) don't believe your statement for one minute because I could drive simi-trucks thru the holes in it all day long. Statements like this are what I am against, simply put learn to grade, learn to think, learn to question everything - don't pay any more for illusions in life than you have to - they abound in multitude's.
If we give this kind of power to TPG companies without questioning them all along the way - we have been had and we deserve whatever we end up getting.

 

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Of course they do and most every dealer I know has had it happen to them personally

Of course they do and many dealers I know have it happen to them personally mostly with monster boxes of Silver Eagles or other multiple orders of course, but what surprises me is that you don't know that?????
Lets even go one step further though and say that that does not ever happen like that.
The statement was made that they have "no vested interest" - they have every vested interest in the grades that they assign - what in the world are you thinking about, that's their entire business - they would not even get any business at all if they graded coins that did not, in the end, please customers.
Please don't ever think I do not apply the same set of discernment skills to all I do, because I do!
I personally know a dealer, (I was at the auction with him) that purchased 50 1960 Proof sets and every set had the same big Large Date over Small Date proof Lincoln in them - a great coin.
Now of course out of 50 about 15 of them were PR-66, 67 Red and 4 or 5 that could go 68-RD easy. This dealer and some of the rest of us took odds on how they would come back knowing the census status of that coin in 68 Rd was extremely low and hard to get (ie: it's hard to get???) - it goes from a $800 to a $1500 or more coin within that step from 67 to 68 back then - he knew he would get x number of 66's, x-number of 67's and maybe 2 68's - that's exactly what he got. All of us knew that there were more 67's in there plus more (a couple anyway 68's) in fact a few of the 67's were much better than the 68's.
If I was in the TPG company I would be asked, or told to do the same thing I bet on a daily basis, or at least weekly for sure.
Please don't kid yourselves regarding this - I thought everyone knew this. It sure ain't news to us please someone help me out here - did some of you really not know that?????

 

we all know tpgs aren't perfect , but you sound like you'd like to go back to the good ole days when everybody would grade as they choose fit , some selling coins at 2,3 or even 4 pts higher , or call any MS-61 a gem when selling and a AU when buying , if you really think it was better before tpgs , I highly disagree .
rzage

 

Doug I see your point , but what irks me is when they give a 1916 SLQ a full head , when it doesn't meet the criteria , A coin either has a full head according to the definitions or it doesn't , one question do they make allowances on FB on mercury dimes because of date , I don't know but I doubt it . Guess I better finish reading the ANA grading book , and then reread it again .
Rusty:hatch::hammer:

 

or the new facebook design (that they recently scrapped).

 

Ben,

I think your logic is flawed because of your perspective. The fact is that the TPG's do not have a vested interest in the final grade other than that the grade is accurate and consistent with their standards. They collect the same fee whether the coin grades 64, 65, or 66.

Let us look at what they do have a vested interest in, maximizing submissions. You seem to think this means all they have to do is give grades that make their customers (submitters--dealers) happy. It is not that simple. A TPG can easily take that approach like ICG and the result is that the coins are consistently overgraded. The submitters would be initially happy because their coins came back with very high grades allowing them to charge high prices for the coins. Unfortunately there is another group of people that must be taken into consideration, the consumers (collectors). If a TPG overgrades, the consumer base will lose confidence in the grading company and either stop buying those slabbed coins or consider every coin encapsulated by that company to be overgraded and pay accordingly. The TPG's must balance these two factors very carefully. If they overgrade and please only the dealers, they lose. If they undergrade, the dealers will take their business elsewhere, again, they lose. The only way to please both sides is to grade all of the submitted coins accurately on a consistent basis. Grading coins accurately on a consistent basis is how you maximize submissions. Both PCGS and NGC have been very successful in grading coins accurately on a consistent basis which explains there market share of the TPG industry.

If you are claiming that the TPG's assign grades using quotas, I will have to ask for some kind of evidence to substantiate that claim. If you are claiming that there is insider tampering to make large submitters happy, again, I will have to ask for some kind of evidence to substantiate that claim. Furthermore, if these two claims are really common knowledge, why doesn't anyone on this coin forum know that!

Paul

 

I'm curious... when you say there is 100% assent, do you mean they agree this is, in fact, the way it is ? ...or that there is no other way ?

 

Rusty you are right. The whole idea of giving one series a break becoz of weak strikes is ridiculous and maybe the great minds dont agree with it but if we only followed great minds and never tried to get ahea dof them we would still be living in caves.

the die question you have raised is valid what happens when one set of dies get worn out and the next ones for whatever reason dont give good strikes what then? I am 100% with you on this but you should know that the market and the greats of the numismatic community are not.

 

it is common knowledge that PCGS uses quotas for their 70 grade. ( GD and i have that agreement) but last time it came up we all had a different opinion on what quota was and quite a lot of people took it the wrong way.

But you are right evidence will be hard unless you see it for yourself. but if u make the right kind of submissions with the right dealers ur grades will reflect that ( this is for modern stuff only) i have never hear it happen to other non modern us coins. there is also the general average that comes into play as to typically what u will get in an unc roll.

large submitters are a happy bunch but IMHO it does not happen due to grade tampering but i have personaly seen designations for coins been changed and not changed depending on who makes the argument and that it can be both good or bad depending on the person and the coin. there is a potential for abuse and at times it does get abused more so in foreign coinage. i have seen some of the discussion that takes place and it is downright uncivil and hostile but its great that the channel is there.

IMHO despite their shortcomings TPG's (NGC PCGS) provide a service for US coins that is unmatched elsewhere in the world and a boon to the hobby

but for foreign coins they cant even attribute the coin let alone grade (KM is their god for foreign coins even if the darned book is full of mistakes) and they should stop behaving like sgs and pull up their socks

 

I admit that there are quotas for modern coins and the abuses of the "first stike/release" terminology are despicable, but I wasn't referring to moderns and I don't think Ben was either.

 

all would be forgiven if those imbeciles got their world coin act together but sadly it will only remain a wish

 

I was referring to Moderns and bulk submission's for,

I was referring to Moderns and bulk submission's for the most part but also all coins.
Evidence for this is one of the problems - they, TPG companies are in complete control of the grades they assign and their business processes.
Look, it's the spin that makes the world go round or "how does anything really appear" - business practices are just that, practices. They are designed to allow a business to prosper - this is business.
When you make a statement such as "they have no vested interest" therein lies a completely illogical statement IMO. I just don't see how you can make that type of statement even without the previous dealers submission results and suspected manipulation of assigned grading.
Their grade, whether VF or MS is recorded, entombed, charged for, labeled and returned to the customer. Their vested interest in any graded coin they process is bought, paid for, sought out and sold as a market commodity. Supposedly their final product is not only assessed but guaranteed and they place their company logo on it to show that very thing.
No one will ever be able to prove to you they manipulate grades and or data and cater to their customers - I always assumed it was a given - it is in any and every other business in the world - why not them.
That's the whole point of owning and managing your business is to always "put it in the best advantage" to make, and keep money and grow.
A relative of mine is a CPA and worked for one of the largest computer corporations in the world. At or near the end of each month they strategically called upon him to lose or gain funds as needed, often in overseas account's to manipulate their books. In other words the budget is really not this, it's this, or that, or in the end, is whatever they need to "cook the books" - it's a common business practice.
Now why would we ever suppose TPG companies would not use the same, and other type business practices
Their vested interest is the graded ABCD coin, assigned a grade and guaranteed as such - their vested interest in every coin they process is their business - they don't do anything else do they????????????????

 

because Lehigh and others have so clearly demonstrated it is not in their business interest for non modern coins to manipulate grades

 

Regarding earlier comments that the top TPGs are generally consistent, how does grade inflation impact that conclusion (consider the PCGS old green holders or rattlers and how they are valued as being undergraded due to today's standards)?

 

because Lehigh and others have so clearly demonstrated it is not in their business in

All I know is what I know - dozens of large coin dealers who have stated to me the same things I have stated to you. Many of these have sent several thousand coins to ANCD grading companies - all of them agree their is manipulation and grade selecting that goes on. I will not be able to convince anyone of this and y'all are smart folks who will need to reach your own conclusions, I am however glad we have a place to share our views - let's put this one to bed for now.

 

bhp:

I don't believe it would be in their best interests to give out artificial grades to make submitters happy. Look at ICG and SGS. They're looked upon as third rate by most of the hobby because of their inflated grades. If PCGS and NGC lost as much credibility in the hobby, their sales will drop.

They're not involved in the sale of what's submitted. They get paid the submission fee regardless of what gets sent out. It's called a third party. And the beauty of it is, you can still look at it for yourself and decide if it's an adequate coin for the grade! If it's not, you're allowed to pass on it! I don't care if people are willing to buy sight unseen. It's their money.

I'd much rather live with their flaws than greedy, dishonest dealers saying raw coins are AU when it's EF, or taking pics under bad lighting for ebay and selling something 3 grades higher than it is. Maybe the TPGs will occasionally be off by a grade, but IMO, they don't miss it by 2-4 grades.

Not to mention the added protection of them checking authenticity. Question is, do you feel safer buying 'authentic' coins from an old timer who's eye sight is going bad or a slab that has been viewed by not less than two or more professionals doing this for a living, with no vested interest whether or not it's authentic? With all the Chinese crap coming into the hobby annually?

You can't tell me there aren't dealers who accidentally bought a raw fake, find out about it and decide to pass it along anyway.