Should coins with too many chops be discounted?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by goldrealmoney79, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    I agree with Publius2, it's a niche market. I think most collectors with an interest in trade dollars like to have at least one chopmarked example; and they usually sell at a discount, so they can provide an opportunity to acquire, say, a CC trade dollar at a better price than an unmarked example. The trick is finding ones that haven't been scrubbed clean, or where the design is severely damaged by the chopmarks. I know the owner of the #1 set (all PCGS) of chopmarked trade dollars, and most of his have 1 or 2 chopmarks, with the design and surfaces otherwise in good shape.
    I think the seller of the coin in the OP is testing the waters and maybe trying to expand the market for heavily chopmarked coins (read their description in the listing) with this "aspirationally priced" coin.
     
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  3. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    here are a couple that are more to my liking:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's an old argument but chopmarks are damage - period. They are no different than if somebody took and hammer and chisel to the coin. The only difference between a chopmark punch and a chisel is the shape of the end of it.

    That said, if they are what you like, by all means collect them.
     
    Inspector43 likes this.
  5. tibor

    tibor Supporter! Supporter

    Saw one several years ago that was "cupped" like the baseball commemoratives from a few years ago. Brought $450-$500.
    It is a niche market.
     
    Inspector43 likes this.
  6. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Well, I have to disagree with the first part of the post. Chopmarks show that the coin travelled to China on a sailing vessel, took part in commerce there, and then returned to the US. I think that is an interesting link to the past and Sino-US commerce. Some of the chopmarks have meaning and have been interpreted. Some like the cartouche chop on the 75-CC above are scarce. Chopmarked 1875-P trade dollars are so rare as to be absent from major collections. Chopmarks add another dimension to collecting and are a legitimate avenue for research. Absolutely not the same as taking a hammer and chisel to a coin.
     
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  7. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    There are fake Trade dollars with chopmarks. Sometimes the mark was on the original coin, sometimes added to the fake later.
     
  8. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    fake 1874-cc TD, obv.jpg fake 1874-cc TD, rev.jpg here is a chopmarked fake I bought years ago on eBay.
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Tell me, other than the shape of the end of the metal punch, how is it different ? Chopmarks are put on coins with a metal punch and a hammer - and a chisel is nothing but a metal punch with a sharp edge. You could use a straight edge screw driver, a phillips screwdriver, or any metal object, and it's all the same thing. A piece of metal being hit with a hammer to leave a mark on the coin. And by definition that is damage.

    Now I have no problem with you or anybody else liking chopmarked coins because of the historical aspect, the cool factor of it, or anything else. But to claim it isn't damage, that's just not wanting to admit what it is because of the derogatory nature of the word damage. As the saying goes, a rose is still a rose by any other name.

    And before somebody brings up the countermark argument as a means disputing that chopmarks are damage, legitimate countermarks are only made by govt entities wishing to mark the coins as being acceptable in commerce. That's why countermarks are not considered damage, and why they are a legitimate exception. And any way ya wanna look at it, Chinese merchants are not govt. entities.
     
  10. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    1877-s chop label  legend.jpg Quite a few chopmarked trade dollars also have test marks on them made by twist drills, to see if the coin was just a plated base metal. That's damage. Chopmarks, by contrast, convey information and permanently place that coin into an historical context. It's an artifact. So it looks like we are having a discussion about linguistic categories, and what belongs in those categories. I do not believe that chopmarked coins belong in the category called "damaged." Apparently, neither does PCGS>
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah, not anymore - but they certainly used to - as did every other TPG ! And they did it for over 20 years ! The only reason they changed their policy of calling ALL chopmarked coins as being damaged was because so many of their customers asked them to do it !

    In that regard, it's just like when they changed their policy about not slabbing any problem coins.

    The TPGs make these changes for one reason - to keep the money rolling in.
     
  12. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Pretty brutally chopped coin, but it does have a coolness factor to it.

    To answer your question, however, you are wrong to think that they should be sold at a discount, as they should be sold at the price that the market will bear, whether or not it is a discount. You would be right to think that it's counterintuitive that a chopmarked Trade dollar would not sell at a discount. As it happens, the coin in the eBay auction sold in August at a Heritage auction for $432, which is a bit of a discount, but perhaps not as severe as you might expect. The eBay seller appears to be looking for a sucker at his asking price, which will likely not work.
     
    ksparrow likes this.
  13. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    meksiko8reales1781.jpg

    Purchased this thing for $5 about 30 years ago - not a lot more than melt value at the time. A 200+ year old dollar sized coin that has evidence of a long circulation in Asia has lots of cool factor to me.
     
  14. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    That's a really cool chopmarked 8R, scottishmoney. I'd love to have that in my collection. Interesting that the chops on 18thc coins tend to be smaller and "lighter" than the large heavy marks on the trade dollars.
     
  15. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Since there is a fixed number of classic coins, TPGs need to be creative in order to generate more revenue, we agree on that.
    If customer pressure induced the TPG's to change their grading policies regarding chopmarked coins, imo said TPG's have become enlightened. :angelic:
     
  16. goldrealmoney79

    goldrealmoney79 Active Member

    whoa lots of opinions here, but its interesting to see how the market pricing has changed over the years. Thanks for all the input!
     
    ksparrow likes this.
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