Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

That coin is a typical example of a commercially graded Morgan $. I did not grade this one.

 

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Now for the 1909-S cent. This is a tough one and I can defend (in a courtroom) any grade from AU-58 to MS-65+! It is a coin I would not buy for my personal collection because there is obvious "rub" on the obverse high points. The old "technical" grade for this would have been Choice (no flaws, beautiful luster) AU ("cabinet friction" )

The commercial grade would easily be MS both back then and today. Now the problem:

Today, our old AU's are virtually always found in MS holders. IMO, today this coin would be very strictly, commercial graded as MS-62 due to the rub. However, the coin "looks like" a coin with a minimum commercial grade of MS-64 when judged with other coins in the market. You'll never be able to buy a coin as this for less than 64 or 65 money. If I were a successful coin dealer, I would sell it "raw" as an MS-65; or get it crossed into probably a PCGS/NGC MS-64.

PS I don't like the color of the reverse so this could be a trick question showing an MS "details" coin.

 

[Copies answer off Insider and turns in his quiz]

 

LOL, I just figured out your post. We probably will both get an "F."

 

Thanks to those who offered a grade on the 1909-S Lincoln. I bought this to put in my Lincoln Cent album. I already had one that is a PCGS MS65 RB CAC. I didn't want to break that out given the grade and CAC sticker. Here is that one.



So I was looking for something that looked nice but perhaps not so rarified a grade. I found the coin below in an ICG MS62 holder (#3550910401). I got it on eBay for $325.

I have now broken it out of the holder, and provide new pictures of the raw coin. After that, I will have some comments.



These are the highest resolution CoinTalk supports, and do not have the color compression artifacts visible in the GIF above.



There were 10 guesses. They covered AU55, AU58, MS62, MS63, MS64, MS65, MS66, and MS67. Only @Insider hit the actual ICG grade of MS62 (as well as several other grades!).

In hand, this has terrific luster on front and back. It is arguable that it is actually a more attractive coin than the one I had, even though the grade is lower. The fields are smoother and free of marks, more like an MS66 than my original MS65. The reverse has a few planchet artifacts (like waves or ripples) underlying ONE and CENT. Even so, the strike, surface, and eye appeal far exceed this PCGS MS65 from Heritage Auctions.


I think both @Lehigh96 and @Insider made some excellent points. Paul suggests that an ICG holder might reduce the liquidity of the coin within it. The price of $325 that I paid is still below the NGC price guide for MS62, which is $415. Skip gave a terrific analysis of why even a "normal" coin like this can provide many reasons to grade higher or lower.

The photos show a color change on the obverse high points, but in hand it can only be seen with my strongest loupe. The color actually seems the same as another silvery spot on the right side of the field. That spot does not show up in these photos since none of the 9 lighting angles light that up directly. But there are similar small silver spots under GOD and UST, and under the B of LIBERTY. So it may be a toning difference, but given the sharpness of the beard, it's debatable whether it is a rub or just a variation in how the overlay of golden-red toning developed.

One last point - the price guide values range from $240 to $30,000 for the 10 guesses. MS65 is 1200, MS65+ is 1900, MS66 is 3000. So people really can find nice coins in ICG holders. And determining a repeatable grade is not easy task. The range of guesses proves that.

I'm putting it into that last hole of my Lincoln set now. (I hope the Intercept Shield album keeps it safe and red...)

 

I will note proudly that I copied Insiders answer on the test. Success!

 

Thanks for the comments. The PCGS CAC coin is Mint state. I will not grade any coin with that many carbon spots higher than MS-64. I hear (better check this) that spots that develop on copper after it is slabbed are no longer guaranteed. I also heard (check this out also) that the grades of any type of coin are not guaranteed after 10 yrs pass.

 

Is that because coins change as they age or because grading standards change? Do the slabs from all four of the big TPGs provide protection from degradation? I've heard that ICG has the best slabs (based on a magazine article from a while back), is that still true?

 

AFAIK all the major TPGS have good slabs. I know for sure that both NGC and PCGS spent ton's of money perfecting the slab materials they use. I've heard (check this out) that both those services get slab "parts" from Chinese companies. Perhaps that makes their holder more subject to counterfeiting.

Coins can change in a holder over time. PCI SE are the best example. Contamination may occur when the coins are slabbed or it may be something that the submitter did to the coin before sending it in.

 

For example:

 

Is there anything people should do with coins before submitting them? Is it sufficient to request conservation if you think it's needed? Will they acetone it and do whatever conservation is? What is conservation? Lol. I'm getting off topic I fear. I never do anything to my coins, but thinking about dipping some silver ones in acetone based on what I've read in threads here. That doesn't count as cleaning apparently.

That's a pretty coin, is that considered degraded? It looks nice to me! Is it not an MS67 any more? If not, why?

 

Not exactly.

PCGS guarantees the grade but not the color.

NGC you have to have copper/brass/bronze regraded every 10 years as both the grade and color guarantee expire at that point

If you pay for it yea

 

PCGS does. It has the best optical clarity, is scratch resistant (NGC you have to pay an upcharge for that), now has the security chips, and is the only slab that is water resistant up to a point such as should be able to be dropped in a sink full of water and be fine.

I would put the ICG slab on par with NGC in terms of structure but the lack of finger gaskets hurts it. I would rank the ANACS slab last out of the four

 

+1

PCGS also has the best stacking ability, ICG 2nd, NGC 3rd, and ANACS last in that regard.

One thing that really bugs me about the new ICG (blue labels) slabs is that the certification # is on the reverse. If I take a photo of the label, all the relevant information should be in one place.

 

Agreed, ANACS has it on the back too. Whatever side it's on I much prefer it to be with the information about the coin as opposed to on separate sides

 

MIGuy, asked:"Is there anything people should do with coins before submitting them? Is it sufficient to request conservation if you think it's needed? Will they acetone it and do whatever conservation is? What is conservation? Lol. I'm getting off topic I fear. I never do anything to my coins, but thinking about dipping some silver ones in acetone based on what I've read in threads here. That doesn't count as cleaning apparently."

IMO, the folks who know what to do "Prepare" every coin they send in so it looks as good as it can be.

baseball21, posted: "PCGS guarantees the grade but not the color."

NGC you have to have copper regraded every 10 years as both the grade and color guarantee expire at that point."

Thanks, for checking. That sounds more reasonable than what I heard about a non-guarantee. I cannot imaging the grade of a coin going down after ten years!



Lehigh96, posted: "One thing that really bugs me about the new ICG (blue labels) slabs is that the certification # is on the reverse."

LOL, makes GTG more fun. I like the SEGS "top label." I think Larry got the idea from me when he saw I had glued a thin strip with the info on the outside top of my PCI coin slabs.

 

Maybe the TPGs should include the date the coin was graded on the label.

 

It is a bit of an arbitrary number from NGC and I think their copper/brass/bronze policy is the only one I know of where the grade expires after a time frame.

"Coins made of copper, bronze and brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated Coins, the grade portion of this Guarantee will no longer apply after the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation. The expiration date of the grade portion of this Guarantee can be found by entering the Coin’s certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website or by contacting NGC Customer Service."
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/ngc-guarantee/

You get a general idea from the holders, but adding the year on the back wouldn't be the worst idea. However if it encourages more of the grade is only good for x years then please keep the year off it

 

But not silver, eh?

 

Don't encourage them.