Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

I’ve enjoyed following this thread. Previously my assumption has been that ICG graded coins trade for less due to the fact that they are perceived to be overgraded. However, if that were the case, I would think that somewhere in this thread’s 24 pages there would be multiple examples showing why ICG’s grading sucks. Not only have I not seen examples, but there were 2 examples from a top tier TPG whose name I won’t mention that really did suck. So now my impression is that a lot of the hierarchy is based on various marketing bells and whistles such as registry sets, websites and the like. Maybe I should be more on the lookout for eye appealing coins in ICG slabs. It would probably be money well spent.

 

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It is a beautiful coin. It is a shame that it had a light cleaning, inasmuch as the detail on it is outstanding. However it was lightly cleaned. That is a shame, as I bet it looked quite nice, prior to cleaning.

 

I can assure you that there are glaring inconsistencies. I owned 19 of the “Golden Nugget Casino Horde” coins, all of which were heavily toned with beautiful toning. I believe the horde was graded exclusively by ICG, initially (all 19 were when I owned them). The grading was way off on a number of them, and I believe most have been regraded by PCGS. I sold them in 2015.

 

Just out of curiosity, if you "circulated" this coin a bit, would it straight grade?

 

What do you mean by “glaring inconsistencies”? Are there specific examples that you can recall within those Morgan’s?

I know that with toners there is potentially more subjectivity, with attractive toning often getting a grade bump despite technical grade. Therefore I wouldn’t be surprised to see more variation between grading companies or even within a grading company.

 

Including your purely technical system you developed before it was ever changed at all. The simple fact is you can use whatever standard you want and any grading system you want and if 10k coins were sent to you over and over in varying submissions sizes and groupings over several years there is 0 change that every single coin would get the exact same grade ever single time.

That means that no matter what system is used there is a subjective aspect to it. It's that simple

This isn't the first time or the first thread I have had to explain it so no I choose to interact with you only minimally when you start out with personal insults among other things.

Just because someone is well known doesn't mean they aren't playing games/chest thumping/or viewing others as beneath them.

 

A very well-known and honest professional grader told me this happens with him.

 

Morgandude11, post: 5190917, member: 37839"]I can assure you that there are glaring inconsistencies. I owned 19 of the “Golden Nugget Casino Horde” coins, all of which were heavily toned with beautiful toning. I believe the horde was graded exclusively by ICG, initially (all 19 were when I owned them). The grading was way off on a number of them, and I believe most have been regraded by PCGS. I sold them in 2015.

I believe this poster. I just learned THIS MORNING when I asked why ICG became "I can't Grade" from the present owner of the company. At one time LONG AGO (I guess I could find out the date but before 2012) ICG was over grading coins for certain people/dealers. This period ruined the companies reputation at the time and apparently many uninformed people who have never used ICG keep parroting how rotten our grading is.


KSorbo, posted: "What do you mean by “glaring inconsistencies”? Are there specific examples that you can recall within those Morgan’s? [Don't bother asking for any recent inconsistencies. There are several uninformed members who post on CT who never back up the nonsense they post. Best to learn who they are and take their posts as "filler-in-an-attempt-to-appear-knowledgeable.] I know that with toners there is potentially more subjectivity [WAY MORE], with attractive toning often getting a grade bump despite technical grade. Therefore I wouldn’t be surprised to see more variation between grading companies or even within a grading company

halfcent1793, posted: "A very well-known and honest professional grader told me this happens with him."

I think inattention plus attempting to assess "market value" in spite of actual condition affects grading more than what goes on at home.

 

I apologize for personalizing my argument. My debate was based on personal experience, based on the Golden Nugget coins, and 23 Carson City Morgan Dollars that I bought back in 2011. It was apparently during a previous ownership of the company, and does not necessarily illustrate the current situation. I based my argument on conditions almost a decade ago.

 

Morgandude11, posted: "I apologize for personalizing my argument. My debate was based on personal experience, based on the Golden Nugget coins, and 23 Carson City Morgan Dollars that I bought back in 2011. It was apparently during a previous ownership of the company, and does not necessarily illustrate the current situation. I based my argument on conditions almost a decade ago."

Wow, Class act! We all can only go by our own experiences. The crooked folks at ICG long ago are responsible for our reputation not you.

 

Yay! Comity wins the day! Who knew that coin collecting could be such a passionate affair.

 

Glaring inconsistencies? Let’s see—19 of the Golden Nugget Toned Ike Dollars were all graded identically. Every one of them was graded MS 64. Upon further investigation, the ENTIRE horde was graded MS 64. My 19 had a wide grade variance, from MS 62 to MS 66, in my experienced opinion. This was with the PREVIOUS ownership—I clarified this with Skip, and he confirmed that the ownership in 2010 was completely negligent, and gave the company a bad name.

 

All of which is true, but the conversation was about why professional graders (including him) are inconsistent, and that was a slightly abridged version of his response to make identifying him impossible.

 

I had heard that they had changed hands in the past and that previous ownership had different grading styles (I think years before ICG was acquired by former ANACS owners or something too).

My question is...why would someone purchase a company with a poor reputation and not re-brand it? Why try and rescue an already struggling name?

 

Morgandude11, post: 5194311, member: 37839"]Glaring inconsistencies? Let’s see—19 of the Golden Nugget Toned Ike Dollars were all graded identically. Every one of them was graded MS 64. Upon further investigation, the ENTIRE horde was graded MS 64. My 19 had a wide grade variance, from MS 62 to MS 66, in my experienced opinion. This was with the PREVIOUS ownership—I clarified this with Skip, and he confirmed that the ownership in 2010 was completely negligent, and gave the company a bad name.

The ONLY thing I clarified was that at one time (date unknown to me) ICG over graded coins for certain people.

CamaroDMD, posted: "I had heard that they had changed hands in the past and that previous ownership had different grading styles (I think years before ICG was acquired by former ANACS owners or something too).

My question is...why would someone purchase a company with a poor reputation and not re-brand it? Why try and rescue an already struggling name?"

At one time, ICG had a good name. In a blind test of coin grading among several services, I read that ICG scored at the top.

 

I agree. We established that there were Quid Pro Quos for certain submitters in terms of over grading coins. I am of the opinion that the Golden Nugget Horde fell into this category.

 

Is there a way to identify holders issued during this period? If actual quid pro quo’s were occurring, and an entire hoard was given the same grade, it would be helpful to establish through holder designs and/or serial numbers how to differentiate “old” from “new and improved”. CGA (currency) went through similar problems, and the new holders were differentiated by a star.

Grading an entire hoard with the same numerical grade sounds to me like an egregious breach of trust. Not to mention statistically impossible.

 

That's a good example why we need to learn how to grade. Before buying an expensive coin do your homework and compare it to others that have sold.

 

That’s completely beside the point. People are paying TPG’s to render an expert, unbiased opinion. If that opinion is tainted by corrupt business practices, then customers are not getting what they are paying for. It’s one thing to say that grading is subjective and that there are differences of opinion, but quite another when that opinion changes based on how much someone is paying.

 

It is with great amusement that I have been following along, and up to today I had nothing to contribute. That has changed.

I received this coin this afternoon in the mail. It in an ICG folder, graded MSnn XX. What’s the number, and what’s the color qualifier? Let’s see if we understand ICG grading after all.

Skip (@Insider ) has asked folks for evidence. Let’s go the other way. Here is the evidence in an ICG holder.

Show your stuff and guess the grade. I will post it with my commentary later. I’ll have better focused photos then, after I crack it out and don’t have the plastic holder in the way. I had to tilt the coin very slightly so the lighting did not reflect off the holder into the lens.

First, here is a shot of the luster, and a moving light source so you can be confident that the lighting is not hiding any gouges, die scratches, or hairlines. This is very close to the in-hand full red color. The reverse is ever so slightly less brilliant than the obverse. The white surround of the holder covers up a bit of the reverse rim, so you will see a pale halo - but the rim is actually OK.



Here are high resolution photos of the obverse and reverse. Sure, you cannot grade from photos, but you really should give this a try. If you think you are a grader, give it a go.