Featured Advanced Coin Photography

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Denis Richard, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. brg5658

    brg5658 Well-Known Member

    @Insider please link to this supposed post you made with coin photographs tilted. I haven't seen it here or on NGC's forum (the two forums you haven't yet been banned from).

    You have been all talk and no "do" for about 2 months on this topic now.

    Sorry to @Denis Richard for the distraction here --- I'll not interact with @Insider anymore in this thread off topic.
     
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    My three-part quiz was NEVER POSTED due to a duckout/ignore/whatever.
    So, as one of my bosses would tell me each time I asked for a day off:

    REQUEST DENIED! :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious: as comments about photography is out of my :bucktooth:"lane." So, I :grumpy: have exactly NOTHING to offer you due to your previous reaction to my innocent suggestion that was not included in your :bookworm::cigar: very informative and simplified post about imaging coins. I'll look forward to learning more from you in the future and I will be :bucktooth:.

    @brg5658, Please be sure you keep to your word: "I'll not interact with @Insider."

    -
     
  4. brg5658

    brg5658 Well-Known Member

    You're the one who ducked out. Nice deflection. Bye Skip - you're goin on IGNORE again - this time probably permanently.
     
  5. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Hopefully :joyful: forever. Or...Until you apologize for calling me a know-it-all and admitting that my simple suggestion in your discussion was also mentioned in the photography book you recommended!

    Now, I'll go back to what I was doing:

    6ogvqt8o2oh3[1].gif
     
  6. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    I debated answering due to not wanting to get in the middle of an apparent feud, but it seems to have subsided, so I'll wade in here...

    I was still hoping to see some sort of example of the advantages of raw processing. You seem quite adamant about it, so I was hoping there was some example you could give to show why. I have an open mind about most everything related to photography, so I'd be very interested to see examples of how shooting raw would help me.
     
    Denis Richard and jtlee321 like this.
  7. jtlee321

    jtlee321 Well-Known Member

    Hey Ray,

    So I will tell you why I shoot in RAW as opposed to JPEG. The difference between the two is the inherent information retained in the files. To keep it photography related, think of JPEG files as Chromes or slides. Slides are very unforgiving in terms of expose and white balance/color.. Slide film was designed for people who are a little more advanced and know how to capture a proper exposure and apply the proper filters to their lens to compensate for warm or cool light.

    Raw files are the equivalent of shooting on color negative film. The exposure range that negative film can capture versus slide film is quite substantial. If you overexpose by a stop or two, you can usually bring back quite a bit of information. Color balance can be corrected a lot easier during the print making process. It's why Ansel Adams shot on film rather than slides. He knew that when it was time to make the final print, he had a lot of head room to work with in terms of adjusting exposure. Obviously he was a competent photographer and could achieve a perfect exposure and shoot on slides, but he chose to shoot on film to allow for his creative vision.

    Here is the technical breakdown of a JPEG vs. RAW. A JPEG is an 8 bit representation of a scene. 8 bits of information are assigned to each of the RGB channels. That equates out to a total of 256 steps of white to black for each color channel. So 256 x 256 x 256 = ~ 16.78 million colors, which is enough for most applications. A RAW file is typically captured in 12 or 14 bit, depending on your camera. Mine gives me the option to shoot either 12 bit or 14 bit. Most people might think, well thats only a difference of 4 or 6 bits, how can it be that much better? In the world of digital information, for each increase in bit size, you double the amount of information. So an 8 bit file is 256 levels per color channel, a 9 bit file would be 512, 10 bits 1,024 and so on... So when you have 14 bits to work with, such as on most Nikon's, that gives you 65,536 steps per color channel for a possible ~ 281.47 trillion colors. That might seem overkill, but as soon as you start editing a file, you start hitting color pallet/space limitations. They start to present themselves as banding in areas of very small color differences, such as sky's or walls or the fields of a coin.

    The bits of a digital file are not distributed evenly from highlights to shadows. Nearly half of a RAW files bits are assigned to the highlights side of the histogram, then another half of the remaining bits are assigned to the upper mid-tones. Another half of the remaining bits are assigned to the lower mid-tones and the remainder assigned to the shadow end of the histogram. So approximately 7 bits of information are assigned to the brightest 25% of the image, 3.5 bits are assigned to the upper mid-tones, 1.75 bits to the lower mid-tones and the remaining 1.75 bits to the shadows. This is why when you try to brighten up an underexposed image, the shadow areas and lower mid-tones tend to develop a lot of noise. Overexposed images can have the highlights recovered much easier.

    Here are some example files.

    Here is an image saved as a JPEG originating from a RAW file as shot from the camera.
    Img0198-as-shot.jpg

    Here is another JPEG file from the same RAW file just with the exposure slider in Camera RAW adjusting down 2 stops.

    Img0198-Processed.jpg

    Here are 100% crops of the two images above.

    Img0198-Crop-as-shot.jpg Img0198-Crop-adjusted.jpg

    Now had I captured the first image as a JPEG, I would not be able to recover the highlights like I was able to do with the RAW file. My tethering software was showing me an improper representation of the exposure. So I actually shot the image about .75 - 1 full stop hotter than I would normally like. But the RAW format allowed me to correct in the RAW processing without having to reshoot.

    Now had I captured the image that we see in image number 2 and try to increase exposure, then noise would be introduced into the shadows and lower mid-tones.

    Another benefit of shooting RAW is white balance. A JPEG has the white balance you chose in camera to be burned into the image data. You can adjust for it later, but you will pay a price in image degradation. A RAW file is just that, the RAW information that the camera sensor recorded. A header is added to the file to show a preview of the image with the camera settings you chose, white balance, sharpness, tone curve, color space and so on... All of those instructions can be changed with no consequence to the image quality prior to conversion from the RAW data. So if you needed to make a change to a different white balance or process the image in a different color space those can be assigned and changed without harm. Then the image can be opened into an image editing program into a 16 bit environment. Further image editing can be done, with minimal image degradation.

    I hope this helps. If not, feel free to contact me and I could go deeper into with you, or anyone else.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
  8. Denis Richard

    Denis Richard Well-Known Member

    Thank you jtlee321 for the elaboration and detailed exposure examples, though I don't see new raw shooting benefits in your post I haven't already mentioned in previous messages in this thread.

    I think the misconception here is not about what shooting raw will do for you, which in itself is nothing, but what you can do with it, which is a lot. If you shoot in raw and do nothing with the file but save it as a jpg, it will be of no benefit to you, in fact it will slow your process down.

    Essentially you can think of it like this; shooting in jpg is like after you take your pictures, you send the files to the photo finishers where they set up the machines print them as per their standard settings and give you the copies. That's where you have to start your editing work from.

    With Raw files it's like after you take your pictures, you bring the files to the photo lab where you adjust the machines, process the negatives, tweak the colors and print the images you want to see. Of course, this method is much harder.

    To take advantage of raw means learning what, why and how to process your raw files to get the best image possible. This is not a small learning curve, but a necessary one. You mentioned once that you (and I paraphrase here) "didn't need to use raw just because everyone else does" but there are reasons why every competent photographer shoots in raw. I highly recommend you research this yourself. Read what other photographers, whose work you aspire too, write about the subject.
     
    Jersey magic man likes this.
  9. jtlee321

    jtlee321 Well-Known Member

    I did elaborate what kind of flexibility and benefits you have with shooting RAW. The biggest being expanded dynamic range, expanded color gamut, ability to fine tune white balance, tint and many other exposure settings within a RAW processor without a negative impact on image quality. Then, when you bring the image into the editing space of Photoshop as 16 bit image, you can really obtain the best quality pixel when applying post processing of the image.

    My analogy of a JPEG to a transparency/chrome or Slide is that the slide is essentially a finished product that you can make enlargements from. Exposure, white balance and color/tint must be correctly set prior to exposure. The RAW file is essentially a color negative with a much larger dynamic range and more flexibility in color correction prior to creating a finished print. The example image I used is really the only one that can be seen here in the forums. The expanded color space in terms of editing in Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB are not supported in the smaller sRGB space of the internet.

    Another benefit of shooting RAW is the ability to create a custom calibration file of your camera and applying it to the image data prior to importing it into Photoshop. You can then have an end to end color calibrated workflow. You know that what is captured by the camera is as accurate as can be, you know that what you see on your monitor is accurate if it's properly calibrated and then you know your output or print is accurate if your printer is calibrated correctly. I know you are familiar with this and it's known as color management.

    For some RAW allows for much more flexibility and creativity with their images. JPEG is for those who are happy with what comes from the camera.
     
    Denis Richard likes this.
  10. rmpsrpms

    rmpsrpms Lincoln Maniac

    Well, I am not sure if it helps or not. Your exposure example makes no sense to me. Once over-exposed, there is no recovery of the image data in the blown channels. Your example appears to show that an over-exposed image was indeed recoverable, but this is simply not possible with digital images. What I suspect is that the jpg conversion was done in such a way that the resulting output appears over-exposed, but could have been processed to avoid the blown highlights. Indeed your image saved as raw and processed to reduce exposure proves this is the case. Raw "sliders" are not magical, and can't compensate for over-exposure.

    Can we see the histogram of this file? I suspect it will show that there is no over-exposure.
     
  11. J Erbes

    J Erbes New Member

    I just came across this forum. Interesting stuff.

    In the spirit of getting back to the intent of the original posting of this thread, which was to share images, techniques and equipment, I’ll share my imaging setup and the results I am getting.

    I’ve been an amateur photographer for 60+ years but only started on coin imagery recently. As you read through this, keep in mind that my goals may not be the same as yours. My primary coin imaging goal is to sell off my coin collection on eBay. There are a lot of coins for sale on eBay. To sell my coins, my images need to stand out above all of the others. Most of my coins are circulated, so I emphasize the 3-dimensional relief aspects of each coin while minimizing the wear and tear of circulation. This posting describes an alternate way of lighting circulated coins that, as far as I know, no one else thinks works.

    I’m using a Canon EOS 60D DSLR (18Mpix) from 2010 along with a Canon 50mm f/2.5 Macro lens. Since the Canon 60D has a smaller APS-C sensor, the 50mm lens effectively becomes a 80mm on that camera body. This is a very sharp lens from f/4-f/16 with the highest resolution at f/5.6-f/8. The lens will close focus down to 1:1, so for smaller coins I add one or more auto-focus extension tubes. The camera is mounted on an antique Kodak enlarger base inherited from my dad. As you can see in the photo, the coins are placed on a 4” clay flower pot with some black mounting board glued on, making the coin easy to rotate and position. I’ll switch to black velvet one of these days. The camera’s aspect ratio is set to 1:1 and gives a 3450-pixel square image (resized to 1600pix for eBay.) I always shoot JPEG, never RAW. I’d like to go to a Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro lens in the future, but then the extension tubes will have to be twice as long. A bellows would be nice, but then you lose the auto-aperture and auto-focus functions of the lens. As with life, every decision you make is a compromise.

    The camera is connected via USB cable to a laptop and the shots are composed and exposed from the laptop using Canon’s EOS Utility software. The EOS Utility lets you to zoom in and focus on any selected area on a coin as well as adjust exposure, sharpness, contrast, color saturation, and color tone. White Balance is custom set using an 18% grey card. Never use Automatic White Balance! For dull, circulated copper coins, I set the aperture at f/8, underexpose by 1/3 stop, set the sharpness to +7, contrast to +4, saturation to +1 and color tone to -1 to warm it a bit. ASA is set to auto with 400 max. Those settings were used, along with a lighting angle of 8 degrees above horizontal, for the image of the 1855 Braided Hair Large Cent below. I don’t do any post-processing at all. Everything is done in camera.

    The way I light my coins is what makes my setup different. Instead of the traditional 10 & 2 positioned lights placed as high as possible, I light my circulated coins from just above horizontal to bring out the relief. To bring precision and repeatability to the process, the two lights are mounted on rotating arms such that the “hinge” of each light arm is exactly in line with the center of the coin atop the pot. As the lights are rotated up or down (with position noted by a pointer moving over a protractor image) the lights are always pointed directly at the center of the coin at a constant distance. I’m thinking of redoing the lights so that I can adjust the distance from lights to coin. I have a different setup for axial lighting which I will talk about in a subsequent post. The lights are ordinary MR16-size 120V 50W-equivalent LED Warm White (3000K) spot lamps with a GU10 base. Sort of similar to Jansjo lights from Ikea but much, much brighter. Wires are soldered right onto the lamps and go to a switch, cord and plug. I suppose you could use 5000K lamps if you really wanted to, but it doesn’t really matter as you are going to set up a Custom White Balance anyway.

    The last photo shows the different effects that you get by positioning the lights at various angles from the horizontal.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. J Erbes

    J Erbes New Member

    Sorry, apparently I have no idea how to embed images in a post on this forum.

    Some help, please?
     
  13. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    If your images are in a file on your PC, then click the Upload a File button at the bottom of your post. Choose the image(s) you need from the file. When uploaded then choose the Large Image option before hitting the Create Post button.
     
  14. J Erbes

    J Erbes New Member

    This probably seems odd, but I'm just not seeing any Upload a File button.
    I just registered with CoinTalk, do I need to be verified by the staff before I can post images?
    I haven't received a verification email as yet.
     
  15. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    Could well be. I think you need a minimum of 10 posts/replies before you qualify. By the way, welcome to CT
     
  16. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Image uploading and embedding hasn't been working for me lately, either.
     
  17. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Apparently, something happened with the code and now you can't post images from outside hosting sites like photobucket, imgur, etc. They said they were working on it but it has been weeks and no change. All of the older posts from the last 20 years are ruined because of it.

    I finally figured out the solution for this forum. You have to create your own albums by "adding media" and then use the BB Code for the uploaded photos the same way you would normally for an outside photo hosting site.
     
  18. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Pity. I'll wait until it's fixed.
     
  19. J Erbes

    J Erbes New Member

    The 'Upload a File' button is now visible for me. Thanks to whoever verified my email. I’ll repost this so my images are with the posting.

    In the spirit of getting back to the intent of the original posting of this thread, which was to share images, techniques and equipment, I’ll share my imaging setup and the results I am getting.

    I’ve been an amateur photographer for 60+ years but only started on coin imagery recently. As you read through this, keep in mind that my goals may not be the same as yours. My coin imaging goal is to sell off my coin collection on eBay. There are a lot of coins for sale on eBay. To sell coins, the images need to stand out above all of the others. Most of my coins are circulated, so I try to emphasize the 3-dimensional relief aspects of the coin while minimizing the wear and tear of circulation. This posting describes an alternate way of lighting circulated coins that, as far as I know, no one else thinks works.

    I’m using a Canon EOS 60D DSLR (18Mpix) from 2010 along with a Canon 50mm f/2.5 Macro lens. Since the Canon 60D has a smaller APS-C sensor, the 50mm lens effectively becomes a 80mm on that camera body. This is a very sharp lens from f/4-f/16 with the highest resolution at f/5.6-f/8. The lens will close focus down to 1:1, so for smaller coins you have to add one or more auto-focus extension tubes. The camera is mounted on an antique Kodak enlarger base inherited from my dad. As you can see in the photo, the coins are placed on a 4” clay flower pot with some black mounting board glued on, making the coin easy to rotate and position. I’ll switch to black velvet one of these days. The camera’s aspect ratio is set to 1:1 and gives a 3450-pixel square image (resized to 1600pix for eBay.) I always shoot JPEG, never RAW.

    The camera is connected via USB cable to a laptop and the shots are composed and exposed from the laptop using Canon’s EOS Utility software which lets you to zoom in and focus on any selected area on a coin as well as adjust exposure, sharpness, contrast, color saturation, and color tone. White Balance is custom set using an 18% grey card. You should never use automatic white balance. For dull, circulated copper coins, I set the aperture at f/8, underexpose by 1/3 stop, set the sharpness to +7, contrast to +4, saturation to +1 and color tone to -1 to warm it a bit. ASA is set to auto with 400 max. Those settings were used, along with a lighting angle of 8 degrees above horizontal, for the image of the 1855 Braided Hair Large Cent below. I don’t do any post-processing. Everything is done in camera.

    The way I light my coins is what makes my setup different. Instead of the traditional 10 & 2 positioned lights placed as high as possible, I light my circulated coins from just above horizontal to bring out the relief. To bring precision and repeatability to the process, the two lights are mounted on rotating arms such that the “hinge” of each light arm is exactly in line with the center of the coin atop the pot. As the lights are rotated up or down (with position noted by a pointer moving over a protractor scale) the lights are always pointed directly at the center of the coin at a constant distance. I have a different setup for axial lighting which I will talk about in a subsequent post. The lights are ordinary MR16-size 120V 50W-equivalent LED Warm White (3000K) mini spot lamps with a GU10 base. Sort of similar to Jansjo lights from Ikea but much brighter. Wires are soldered right onto the lamps and go to a switch, cord and plug. I suppose you could use 5000K lamps if you really wanted to, but it doesn’t really matter if you set up a Custom White Balance.

    The last photo shows the different effects that you get by positioning the lights at various angles from the horizontal.

    S 1.JPG
    S 2.JPG
    S 3.jpg
     
  20. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    Very impressive. As someone who has been coin collecting for a year, since I inherited, my previous photography was mainly landscape and nature type. I am trying to get good images of my coins but have the problem that my camera is unable to be tethered to my PC. It is a Sony A330 DSLR 10 MP and I have noticed that there is a vast quality difference when using the camara's lcd screen against live view through the eyepiece. I have a similar set up, coin raised, tripod, but I use up to 4 adjustable led lights. Results so far have been adequate but not what I hope for. Kudos to you for studying a subject that at the moment, to me, is all completely foreign.
     
  21. Mac McDonald

    Mac McDonald Well-Known Member

    As a part-time history buff as well as coins, have to bring your attention to the second-to-last Lincoln coin from the bottom...the one with his birth and death dates. The death date is wrong. He was shot on the evening of April 14th, but didn't succumb until about 7:AM on April 15. Sorry, but thought had better bring it to someone's attention.
     
    Etcherman likes this.
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