Who hates slabs more than me?

I personally have no use for the tpgs, but I do think they have value as an authentication service. In general, I don't care if someone wants to send their coins in for grading either. I would rather have more tokens than receipts from a tpg, but that's just me.

What I dislike about slabs the most is when they are used primarily as a marketing tool (read as profit generator). With exonumia, the majority of items are so scarce that things like a cleaning, altered surfaces, or being recolored have little impact on value to a collector. George Fuld even states on page 31 of his Patriotic cwt book that Group "B" damage, which includes holes, rim nicks, stains and other damage, that unless those influences are quite severe or many in number, value reductions will seldom exceed 15%, and a figure of 5 to 10% is more commonly the average reduction in value.

While fake cwts do exist, they are extremely low in numbers. I would challenge anyone to search ebay, a haven for fakes, and if more than one or two are found over the course of a year, I would be extremely surprised. I have bought every fake cwt that I have seen on ebay, and I have purchased 3 in over 8 years of buying on that site. The guarantees of the tpgs have expiration dates with copper. What I'm saying is that most of the "protectionist" features of slabs have greatly reduced meaning regarding exonumia.

As far as the tpgs being accurate graders, I am a bit skeptical of their abilities. If someone can convince me that there is a good reason for coins such as the King of Siam set to improve overall in grade EVERY time it has been submitted, perhaps I'll reconsider. As far as their getting the grade right more than they get it wrong, well, I would certainly hope so - they are supposed to be professionals aren't they? There are times though when their relative lack of experience with tokens is obvious. I think that the current grading system is flawed and unable to be accurately used by the collecting populace in general. That is a shame IMO, and something that I feel the dealers and tpgs capitalize on.

Some of you may find it a little difficult to believe, but on the whole, dealers and collectors of exonumia are a rather honest and trustworthy lot. Dealers tend to be very honest about descriptions of condition. In part that may be due to the fact that tokens rarely have the sharp increase in value from one grade to the next, so the financial incentive is greatly diminished. A cwt for example, is often worth only twice as much in Uncirculated condition as it is in Fine condition. I've had sellers routinely send me (and others that I know) thousands of dollars worth of tokens at a time before I even send in payment.

Of all of the sellers of cwts that I have seen and dealt with over the years, it has been my observation that only a few sellers seem to deal with in cwt slabs. But those sellers tend to have A LOT of cwt slabs. While it may be a flawed opinion, the opinion that I hold is that those few sellers represent the driving force behind cwts becoming slabbed. Why do those sellers make all of those submissions? Primarily because there are those people currently participating in the market that willingly pay multiples of list value if there is plastic involved. If the populations of cwts were higher, I would really not care how those people spend their money. But since there are so many low pops, often only in the single digits, that one up for sale in the slab may be my only crack at that variety in my lifetime. While raw cwts often sell for around the listed value, ones in plastic often go for ridiculous amounts, even in the circulated grades.

To provide examples of how much plastic affects the hammer price, I searched completed ebay cwt auctions for NGC, and here are the first 10 results found (I skipped the unlisted ones as there is no value for comparison):

1. WI510M-1a 1.7x list

2. 131A/349Aa opening bid at 4x list (did not sell)

3. 60/200ao 3x list

4. 1/359j 1.8x list

5. OH385B-2a 2.3x list

6. OH745B-3b 3.4x list

7. OH165FF-4a 6.2x list

8. 93/362a 3.3x list

9. RI700E-2c 2.8x list

10. MI300B-1a 3.2x list

For the 9 slabbed tokens that sold, the selling price averaged about 3.1x list price.
For disclosure, the only cwt value listing is several years old now, and while the prices were fairly accurate when it was published, even raw coins in today's market typically bring 1x to 1.5x the listed values. But even in that light, a token in plastic will still cost you 2x to 3x that of a comparable raw token.

That is paying pretty dearly for something that does not improve the entombed item in any way. The buyer may not have wasted his money on a fake, but IMO wasted even more on plastic!

 

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cwtokenman - excellent post! Your comments are true for Conder tokens as well. Slabs are truly unnecessary and drive up costs.

As for U.S. type, I must admit some laziness that Conder101 asserts. Unless one collects a series and approriately learns that in depth, it is hard for the type collector to take the same approach for one purchase of a given type. I do examine the type coin under consideration for purchase and pass or play given that coin's merits (as I understand them including eye appeal). As such, I am relying to some degree on a legit TPG's grade assessment. So, I'm guilty as charged (Gawd help me) and run the risk of making stupid purchases!

 

he didnt mention ncs but it falls in the same category

 

Well as i stated I said all companys are doing it we know that;s very posible you even said they do exsist. I think that;s contradictive. We know there;s crooks out there in ever area of the industry that;s were common sense lies into the picture.I'm also, known to have a form of mental telepathy ,because i'm half alien and halve human,and i didn't want to let that known.:secret:

Jazzcoins Joe hybrid ZEC

 

Excellent summary! :thumb:

 

JazzcoinsJoe

 

While the discussion is good; isn't this simple - if you don't like slabs don't buy them. If you don't like the prices don't pay them. Of course sometimes you can get slabbed examples cheaper than what dealers list the raw examples. You are allowed to free them from the slabs. Personally slabbed or not slabbed I have to like the coin - just my own opinion.

 

"Don't buy them" is easily said when there are raw ones available. My "complaint" is that with what I collect, that token in a slab may be my only shot to obtain that variety in my lifetime. There are a number of tokens that I have actively sought for over 30 years and have yet to see offered. If one were to appear on the market, but in a slab, I am essentially forced to pay the inflated slab price if I truly want an example of that variety.

Let me pose you a question Mark. Since you have a bust half as your avatar, I will use that series in my scenario. Let us say that you would like to purchase an uncirculated bust half, any common date/mm will do, and a grade of MS-60 will suit your desires. Assume average list retail price (from whichever list you like) to be $1000. You possess fairly good grading skills and are able to grade with decent accuracy. Your 40+ years of studying your favorite series, coupled with looking at thousands of examples, reading every book you could find on the topic (including counterfeit detection), have equipped you with a considerable amount of both experience and knowledge. In your quest, you are offered a selection of raw coins that the reputable dealer indicates as being MS-60 (and you agree), with firm prices ranging from $1000 to $1500. The same dealer also has NGC slabs available which are graded at MS-60. Prices for the slabs are a firm $3100 each. Consider the raw coins and the slabbed coins to be comparable in every way other than being slabbed or not. From which group of coins would you be more likely to make your purchase?

 

Well one example to be, would be enough indications that there are others happening as we speak right now.and again GD it;s just my feeling ,and my opinion that i feel like this ,and usually when i have that feeling i;m usually right,and as i said before it;s just common sense to me that It's happening out there. I would say it;s common sense supposition to me anyway.

Jazzcoins Joe hybrid alien Zec







plain commonsencesupossitin

 

WOW! What a thread! I just spent the last hour reading it and I am almost afraid of saying anything. I just worry that bottom end 'collectors' like me will be put off by the intensity of some of the responses. encil: As I read this, I am struck by one thought. This is a subject for high end 'investors', not guys like me. (although it was funny to watch Jazzcoins spelling get worse the hotter the discussion went) :computer:

To spend $1000 versus $3000? Most of us will never venture into that kind of market. If I did, my kids would have to argue with the coin shop over the price, as my wife would kill me! :hammer:

I only owned 4 slabbed coins, all newer issues. The only reason I bought them is in my collection (anything with a buffalo on it) I wanted to have them in every manner offered (slabbed, silver, proof, MS, etc). As I will never have the "expertise" to say I know more than someone who grades coins for a living.

To all my fellow 'non expert' collector brothers and sisters I say, If you look at it, hold it, your eyes get bigger, your heart beats faster, that little drop of drool finds it's way to you chin, buy that slab. Sometimes it's just cool to have! IMO :thumb:

 

See, I knew yankees were from another world! :goofer:

 

I'm a newer collector as compared to some of you veterans, but slabs sort of appeal to me. I think that its a HUGE matter of opinion but like GDJMSP said it (or implied, and I agree with him), the benefits do outweigh the "negatives" (although I do not beileve there are negatives). I do not own any slabbed coins but I do plan on purchasing a few this summer. (when the money starts flowing again). I feel that a few slabs would really add some variety to my collection, and In a way may serve as "centerpieces". Just my take on it.

Pistol

 

Pistol - hopefully the coin itself will be the centerpiece and the plastic just the wrapping. Remember to buy the coin, not the slab!

 

As an intermediate collector, slabbed coins do serve to protect me. I don't purchase many "raw" coins anymore. If I do, they are usually less than $100 in value. The TPG's can an do make mistakes, they are only human. I own one. Buy the coin not the slabb best fits. And most importantly know WHO you are buying from.

In higher grades take a PCGS Certified coin and sell it along side with a raw counterpart. The PCGS coin will out sell the raw consistently.