Is ICG really as bad as many people say?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by TylerH, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    When I say grading superstar, I don't mean a phenomenal grader, I mean a guy with a numismatic resume. Someone who can be the face of the company and be respected by the numismatic community. It isn't enough just to do a good job and provide good service, the world demands celebrities. If the President of your grading company isn't a celebrity (in the numismatic world) then you don't really have much of a chance at increasing market share. David Hall, Mark Salzberg, and John Albanese all have that level of celebrity.

    Brett Charville is not a celebrity and in the eyes of most people, he is a kid, way in over his head. When he makes statements that major coin shows should be about interaction rather than transaction, and that coin shows should model their shows after comic cons, it makes me feel like PCGS is adrift, vulnerable, and possibly already in decline. But with the absence of their own numismatic superstar, it becomes impossible for ANACS, ICG, or any other 3rd party grader to climb into the ring with PCGS & NGC.

    So again, who is the superstar at ICG or ANACS?
     
    Mainebill likes this.
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    The do recognize ICG and ANACS. At one point they only recognized NGC & PCGS, but they added ICG and ANACS to the list. I don't know when this happened, but it has been at least a few years.
     
  4. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    ICG had a long time numismatist Skip Fazzari who’s as good of grader as anyone ;):woot:
     
  5. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    Agree on Hall Albanese and Salzburg. I don’t even know who’s grading at Pcgs anymore. My only preference for them is the market likes them and I like the look of their slabs best but otherwise I feel their grading hit and miss and all over. Other reason I use pcgs and Ngc is caconly approves their coins andJA a grader I do respect especially for surfaces. Though he’s human and not foolproof
     
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  6. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Yes, but the proper use of HTML tags is a requirement to run a company. :D
     
  7. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    Agreed on most of the better coins in icg and anacs slabs get cracked out. Have a friend who had a couple gold coins graded there. One 64 other 63. My opinion the grades spot on. But he wanted pcgs cac money for them.
     
    John Burgess likes this.
  8. brg5658

    brg5658 Well-Known Member

    Shots fired. :D:cool:

    I LOL-ed at this one!
     
  9. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    I appreciate your willingness to comment in this thread, acknowledging your long time experience and expertise in authenticating and grading coins. Do you think that PCGS and NGC rose to the top because of big time dealer bias?
     
  10. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    That's really not true, maybe from the uninformed. He was connected behind the scenes and has done a phenomenal job so far improving the company. They're actually listening to what collectors want like adding PL to all coins, doing paper money themselves again, being innovative, and really just brought the company into the modern world which many of the grading companies struggle with just to name some of the positive changes.

    Not sure how you can say they could be in a decline when they're doing a ton of business considering the circumstances and their stock price is more than double what it's all time high under the old regime was.
     
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  11. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Thelivinglady, asked: "Wonder why eBay doesn't recognize this company. Any answers appreciated.

    When was the last time you looked on Ebay? AFAIK, the four major TPGS's have been on Ebay for some time.

    Lehigh96, posted: "When I say grading superstar, I don't mean a phenomenal grader, I mean a guy with a numismatic resume. [?? Do you mean like John Roberts at ANACS?] Someone who can be the face of the company and be respected by the numismatic community. [Is Dave Bowers or Mr. Stack one of your superstars with a resume? They both are heads of a company. Is Michael Fahey a superstar with a resume? How about Randy Campbell, a two time FUN President? Do you understand how confused your opinion is getting? Apparently now your grading "Superstar" does not need to be a phenomenal grader, just a good business man with a resume. Which is it?] It isn't enough just to do a good job and provide good service, the world demands celebrities. If the President of your grading company isn't a celebrity (in the numismatic world) then you don't really have much of a chance at increasing market share. David Hall [no longer at a TPGS], Mark Salzberg [well you got one], and John Albanese [no longer at a TPGS] all have that level of celebrity.

    Brett Charville is not a celebrity and in the eyes of most people, he is a kid, way in over his head. When he makes statements that major coin shows should be about interaction rather than transaction, and that coin shows should model their shows after comic cons, it makes me feel like PCGS is adrift, vulnerable, and possibly already in decline. [Possibly true] But with the absence of their own numismatic superstar, it becomes impossible for ANACS, ICG, or any other 3rd party grader to climb into the ring with PCGS & NGC.

    So again, who is the superstar at ICG or ANACS? [According to your criteria, we have none although if I have a question about a gold coin I can ask Mark Yaffe - an industry "superstar" with a resume.]

    Lehigh96, posted: "Yes, but the proper use of HTML tags is a requirement to run a company." [This is probably funny but I don't know what an HTML tag is.]

    wxcoin, posted: "I appreciate your willingness to comment in this thread, acknowledging your long time experience and expertise in authenticating and grading coins. [Thanks, I am an equal opportunity TPGS BASHER!] Do you think that PCGS and NGC rose to the top because of big time dealer bias?

    No question. A number of very influential dealers and numismatists didn't like the way coins were being graded. However, they needed a qualified authenticator and hired Rick Montgomery away from the ANA. In the beginning you could only submit through an authorized PCGS dealer who I've been told got a :greedy: kick-back.
     
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  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    baseball21, posted: "Not sure how you can say they could be in a decline when they're doing a ton of business considering the circumstances and their stock price is more than double what it's all time high under the old regime was."

    That's why the kid was hired. :D
     
    Oldhoopster likes this.
  13. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I’ve always struggled with the comparisons between the major grading companies. In my opinion there is enough subjectivity in grading to make a truly scientific comparison impossible. At the end of the day I like PCGS because their holders look nice and everyone else seems to like them. When I see something in an ICG or ANACS holder that’s questionable, I really can’t say anything, because someone is going to show an example of something in a PCGS or NGC holder that’s even worse. Are ICG and ANACS really any looser in numerical grades or in identifying problem coins?

    Isn’t a lot of the industry consensus just confirmation bias?
     
  14. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    It's ironic that JA has been an integral part of the big two at some point in time before starting CAC. IMO, I see a blatant bias in that CAC doesn't sticker ICG or ANACS slabs. CAC could easily evaluate them as well but my guess is that he still has a vested interest in the big two. Maybe I'm just too ignorant and uninformed but I either smell a rat or my dinner is ready.
     
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  15. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    There’s really a simple explanation to all of this. Say we hypothetically say grading is completely equal at all of them, so then what’s the separation? Well two are international companies with offices on multiple continents and two have a single office. Two have apps and two do not as far as I know. Two can go to CAC, two can not.

    Of the international two one has far more online resources and a modern webpage with many apps. More importantly they have a better optical holder that is not only water resistant underwater to an extent but scratch resistant, added security chips, has been innovative etc. The other has an okay webpage with an app or two, up charges for scratch resistant holders and basically same holder for a decade or so if not longer where just the labels change.

    I don’t have the energy to do any grading arguments and really just don’t care enough, but it’s clear why there’s a 1 then like a 1.5 then the rest and it’s clear whose best set up going forward to keep being the leader. Anyone whose expecting some drastic flip, that ship sailed a long time ago
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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  16. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    He doesn’t. What’s he doing to do say here’s our PCGS CAC price and here’s our ANACS CAC price or is he just going to eat it for cross overs for them? One of the more well known auction houses won’t even submit to one of the two you mentioned they won’t look at.
     
  17. chascat

    chascat Well-Known Member

    Money talks!
     
  18. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Free scratch resistant holders? That’s a game changer of course :)

    And that’s what actually matters most. I don’t care about slightly different grading standards, but I sure do care if cleaned or damaged coins get a pass.
     
    furham likes this.
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    That actually is. Or would you buy a completely dinged up holder

    If you wanna take up the grading fight part by all means go right ahead. The order is there for a reason and it’s unlikely to change so that’s a pointless fight
     
  20. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I keep my slabs in a box and handle them carefully.
     
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Cool. Happy thanksgiving I’m done responding
     
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