Germany comes down on Collectors with a heavy hand

Well Dru before they start picking on the little collectors perhaps they should clean out there own houses first to set a example, how about the Museum in Berlin returning the Egyptian artifacts that were Illigaly removed from Egypt well over a hundred years ago (LOL Bet they wont do that) and do they have documented proof off the origins of every article kept in the State run Museum's (Again I bet not LOL) Someone should bring this to court in a very big way citing the head man responsible as a law breaker
This is a totaly disgustin way to act towards what most peopel would see as Law abiding people with a harmless hobby :headbang:

 

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Presumed Innocent is useless in civil matters, but the takings clause does give you some protection, but not enough. This is a treaty and when a treaty is involved, such as in much of copyright law, civil and constitutional rights get utterly bent up except for the most extreme cases.

It is very easy for a law such as this to be passed in the US and if we are a signer to this treaty, you can bet that something is brewing and that this won't be isolated to Germany alone.

Treaties really suck...and are dangerous

Ruben

 

True, this is a point that was made in a recent discussion between collectors and dealers and archeologists (a few of the more rabid ones). Colonialism was brought up as well as the deplorable practices of archeologists in the past who so often spirited away artifacts that now sit in the British museum, the Louvre and other small museums all around the world. Not to mention what might be on these archeologists shelves at home...but thats okay because they are the ones who SHOULD have these items entrusted to their care.

Someone defending these actions brought up and compared collecting with the actions of colonialism and the disregard for native cultures, how colonial masters took things at will...then he makes a statement about 100 years (like this law)...saying people should only collect coins that come from old collections...these items are no less or more looted, there just weren't laws at the time to prevent it... So since there weren't laws to keep them out of the market then its somehow okay to have a looted item....almost like they are forgiving colonialism and all that was looted during that time...something that Europeans often do...we should content ourselves with what looters could get in pre-metal detector days....and of course all the state looted items brought back by French, English, Belgium, Netherlands, etc...

It reminds me of people who complain about immigrants, saying how THEIR relatives came into the country legally...why cant these people. They neglect to mention their relative came to the country at a time when the only qualification to get in was that you weren't dying of TB. Now there are a whole host of rules and laws to keep most people out...just like now there are people who have worked diligently to make countries pass draconian laws to keep even the smallest, low value, common Constantine coin from leaving the country...thus ANYONE selling a coin from these countries are crooks and looters, they have no legal trade...and thats how they want all countries to be....leaving collectors nothing but coins found before 1970. I am sure its begrudgingly.

From the 'debate' between the rabid archeologist and collectors and dealers...I walked away with one overpowering impression from the archeologist and that was complete and utter disdain for collectors. It was less of a debate but a chance for them to say 'shame on you' and to try to 'teach' us what we are doing wrong and why its wrong. They did so in the most infuriating way as if talking to children. When anyone even suggested that they were possibly shooting themselves in their own foot with these laws, or that these laws and their own refusal to admit collectors have a right to collect, that their practice of greedily hording away all antiquities and their refusal to allow even the more common items go to market...might be a problem. Or if you point out the glaringly biased disdain (they could not help but insult collectors in their missives) and disrespect they were showing us (see coin fondlers) and point out that they were insulting all collectors with their statements...then they gave the lament of the troll...'oh why must you divert from the issue by commenting on HOW I am saying things and not the REAL issue which is WHAT I am saying'

These guys did not want to debate, they just wanted to hear collectors lament the fact that we have contributed to the destruction of archeological sites and agree with them and stop collecting. When they found this wasnt going to happen...they said there was no need for further discussion because we were unable to understand what they were trying to say (in essence...unable to see how wrong we are).

Oh well...one group...probably one of the only groups looking to protect ancient coin collectors is the ACCG...if you havent looked into them, they can be found here:

http://www.accg.us/

 

Drusus, you know it's interesting what you say. In the art world, there are multiple instances of art collectors taking BETTER care of their art than museums!

In general, though, I'm usually in favor of art/archaeology repatriation if the museum hasn't had it more than 100 years or so, and the "native land" really has facilities to manage it.

This is a big question likely to get bigger as technology improves our ability to locate potential digs.

 

A simple case of do as I say not as I do.

I wonder what these buffoons would do if people started walking into police stations with crude lumps of silver telling them "this was my ancient collection but since it's illegal to own them I melted them down". "Now prove I had the coins in the first place".

I also have to wonder what they might find if they searched an archaeologist's home? That could be real interesting.

 

I agree with all you say. I have a few medals that came to me that I think might have been war booty. Some of them are one of a kind...or so rare I have yet to find similar specimens. I was told not to post them just in case. I posted them anyway with the idea that if someone sees it and lays claim to it, then I would be willing to let them go as I DO understand that rare and valuable culturally important artifacts need to be given to those who rightfully own them...not only that but I do also understand that dig sites need to be protected because the information they might produce is important to us all and interesting to me as I am very much interested in history.

What I gather is that most collectors and those who use metal detectors are, more often than not, people who are interested in history and that is why they look for these things or buy them. They would be more than happy to work WITH archeologists as long as they know that, in most cases, their own interests will be protected...that is...if they find a cache of coins...they wont have them snatch away from them and be labeled a 'looter'.

A good way of doing things in my humble opinion is to allow collectors a chance to buy those artifacts that, realistically, will never been shown in museum...if I find a cache of 300 coins of Constantine...I report it to them, they get to dig the site and make whatever discoveries they find important...then they give me back the coins...and lets face it...90%+ of all coins found will never be considered interesting enough to take up space in a museum as there are thousands of the same kind of coins...and many are common and just not interesting to the common museum visitor. They give me those coins they realistically know will never see the light of day again and allow me to do as I please...This way archeology gets the info they need, and collectors get what they DO want and that is a complete picture of the coin, where it was found, etc...a full provenance starting from where it was found and what it likely was (soldiers buried booty, temple cache, etc...)...what collector would want that info?

I got the impression that while numismatist seem more than willing to compromise and work together, archeologist (some not all by far) seem to disdain the numismatist as casual coin enthusiasts who can contribute nothing to the process...the reality is that numismatists have a wealth of knowledge and information and often can tell you everything you would ever want to know about the coins that are their passion and could be a real boon...the only people I have seen from numismatic field that seemed a bit less happy about any cooperation between numismatist (collector) and archeology were dealers. If collectors got coins directly from museums and archeological digs...the dealer would have a harder time and his undocumented coins would be 'loot'

 

It sounds to me as if archeologists call someone a "looter," when they really mean that they are angry that the other guy got there first. I have sympathy for preserving sites and artifacts so they can be studied, but it's tough to completely agree that everything under the ground or previously discovered belongs to the government or national museum even before it is discovered. We have precious few individual property rights left as it is.

 

I agree that looting happens and it happens a lot and I as a collector do not want it to so I am more than willing to work with them if they will work with me, problem is they dont want to work with collectors, they simply want to people to stop and that just isnt going to happen. Its a matter of grasping the reality of the situation, swallowing your pride and accepting that people will collect these things and try to work with it.

In Britain...what many metal detectorist will do is ask a person who owns the land if they can detect there and they make an agreement before hand as to who will get what if something is found.

Now if they DO find something, it isnt theirs, or I should say it isnt theirs YET. They will have to report it and the government will then come in and take a look at what they found and the site. If they feel it is just an isolated cache and nothing found was of any real importance or rarity, they will pass on it and allow the people to keep what they found...from there they can sell it or keep it, its theirs legally now.

If what they found is decided to be important and it should be in the hands of a museum...they will compensate the people who found it...as far as I can tell its rather fair although it might not be as much as one would get for some rare artifact on the open market...all the same...in the UK you have Treasure Hunters who work WITH archeologist directly (I have seen this first hand) to help them find sites that archeologist think are there...and you have people reporting finds.

In the Balkans...if a farmer digs up a cache of gold coins...what do you think he will do? Tell the government he found them so they can be snatch away with no compensation....or will he sell them secretly? or worse yet...melt them down and sell them for the gold value....most likely the later. Heavy handed measure such as this simply will NOT work...it will NOT stop looting. Nothing will stop looting all together but I DO believe that it is better to try to legitimize collectors and treasure hunters, give them credit and some of the treasure then to vilify them, drive them underground, and leave them no alternative but to loot.

 

That makes sense ... :thumb:

... so it will never happen.

 

And when the archeologist finds an ancient coin in a dig what does he typically do to find out what it is? He turns to a numismatist

Don't count on that to save your coins. A few years ago a collectors collection was confiscated and sent to Turkey after they requested it as being cultural property. If I recall correctly the collector was moving to the US, Turkey made their request ad the collection was seized as it came through customs.

 

Sounds like the individual was a Turkish citizen seeking to move to the US. Who can blame him ?

Sounds like the coins never cleared customs, and thus were never legally in US territory. All countries have all sorts of laws restricting what can be brought in (and how much).

Perhaps this episode has little to do with US law and much to do with Turkish law; I don't know. It certainly seems like an act forced by Turkey more than the US.

Moreover, we need more detail on this Turkish thing before sounding any alarms about how we're all at risk.

In any event, I certainly can't take a case like this and get concerned about myself - a US citizen keeping coins within US borders.

And as for the worriers... I'm not in your camp. I have never met anyone who had the Gestapo break down their door and steal their stuff. Sorry, guys... I'm just not whining about "the complete trashing of my civil rights". If you really feel you're at risk here, move someplace safe. Maybe Turkey. Or Germany.

Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. He felt it was necessary. And he was a tremendously honorable and magnanimous man, bound by the Constitution.

 

This is what we have in the UK and it works quite well, if you look back at recent finds in the UK you will see that many were discoverd by metal detectorists

http://www.finds.org.uk/

 

And how many of these men are left in 2009?? Lets count.

1. Ron Paul. 2........ Hmmm. I'm sorry. Can't think of anymore.

 

There's danger in making excuses for and trying to legitimize government action that violates civil liberties. Maybe there was nothing to it but I won't try to explain it away.

As for the Gestapo, in 2005, New Orleans residents got to meet them.

Hurricane Katrina. There's looting and rioting in the streets. Instead of targeting these people and trying to rescue those in need, N.O. PD sends groups out in a door to door search to confiscate legal firearms from law abiding citizens, including beating up old women. Watched it first hand.
The firearms get carelessly thrown in trailers for years. Many never to be returned to their rightful owners even after a judge demands it. "It was the people's fault because they didn't keep good enough records for proof of ownership."

 

Well, there are people on this board that I think fit the description, starting with our host.

 

How many of them have a vote in Congress?

 

i agree and i also beleive there should be a finders fee

 

Umm, that was more than half a year ago. And while the police and DA surely overreacted - and in other cases still do IMO - , in this particular case the reason for the search was that the four ancient Greek coins which he bought via eBay had apparently been stolen from a Czech museum before.

The problem is that yes, there are cases of theft, illegal "digging" (note however that in Germany the laws regarding detectorists vary widely from state to state) and dealing with stolen coins. So it does make sense to try and prevent or fight such criminal activities. But it is not exactly helpful to resort to the other extreme and criminalize all collectors of "old" coins merely because people do not have a proof of ownership or similar documents for all of their coins. (After all, while it may help in cases of theft, such documentation is not a legal requirement.)

Here in Germany this whole discussion is not new, but why not raise awareness elsewhere ... The matter will also be discussed at the WMF this weekend; there are two articles about it in the WMF catalog, and European dealers (FENAP) may issue a joint statement. Hope it helps ...

Christian