Ides of March Aureus for Sale

Wow. That would be a record for ancient coins in general, even though I think that traditionally the most valuable ancient Greek coins have always sold for more than their Roman equivalents.

 

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I was not necessarily asking for a CT opinion. However, there ARE opinions I would value over the esteemed Mr Barry and Mr Vagi. David Sear and Curtis Clay come to mind. Would I not listen to anything Mr Murphy said Both? Heck no. He is a man worthy of respect of his numismatic opinions, I am simply saying his is not the ONLY voice worthy of that..Both educated, fine gentlemen, but not the greatest ancient coin authorities living or dead. I was wondering if someone had an up to date analysis of the discussion of authenticity, as I have read that equally or more qualified experts thought all gold examples were false.

Btw, just to reiterate, I have nothing but respect and "numismatic love" for Mr. Murphy. He has been an ambassador for this hobby online for decades now. I remember looking forward to what he had to say on Moneta-L back in Yahoo group days. Great, great man for our hobby.

 

The auction catalogue entry has a long discussion of authentication measures drawing upon die studies. I think its concluding rhetoric works a bit too hard. (I tell my students to let their evidence, not their rhetoric, make their argument convincing.) But the discussion of the evidence makes for an interesting read. I present the final paragraph:

"Our own conclusions drawn from a study of the die-state progression of Cahn die ‘A’ clearly have important bearing on considerations concerning the present coin. That the EID MAR type was indeed struck in gold by Brutus as well as in silver must be considered to be beyond all reasonable doubt, as represented by the ‘Biaggi-Winckless’ coin now in the British Museum, and the NFA-Sotheby’s coin now in the collection of the Deutsche Bundesbank, which until recently were believed to be the only two surviving examples of the issue. The fact that the present aureus occupies a previously unrepresented stage in the die-state progression, combined with the fact that it is die-paired (O1/46) in accordance with the die progression prescribed by Cahn and confirmed by McCabe and Campana, and obvious physical properties of the coin (fabric, die axis, and strike properties) which are entirely consistent with the Deutsche Bundesbank example (being closer in state of preservation than the Biaggi-Winckless coin) and other contemporary ‘Liberator’ aurei in general, provides an unassailable argument in favour of the piece, which further augments our understanding of both the Biaggi-Winckless and Deutsche Bundesbank examples, and the series as a whole."

https://www.romanumismatics.com/221-lot-463-brutus-av-aureus?arr=0&auction_id=75&box_filter=0&cat_id=&department_id=&exclude_keyword=&export_issue=0&gridtype=listview&high_estimate=500000&image_filter=0&keyword=eid mar&list_type=list_view&lots_per_page=100&low_estimate=100&month=&page_no=1&paper_filter=0&search_type=&sort_by=lot_number&view=lot_detail&year=&fbclid=IwAR0DG3zdGrP9TjHEp9Obi-oxry_Yam9gA1hSErbCoEIvbVxg2cpOR8aCfL4

 

Thank you sir. I agree the verbage, while understanding it was written by a person wishing to sell the item, is over the top. To state that a long running debate with eminent experts on both sides now must be considered "beyond a reasonable doubt", and providing an "unassailable argument" hurts their story more than helps. The presence of a third example could also simply mean there were more struck from the die than believed, whether that die was official, contemporaneous, or created for collectors much later. Maybe the debate is settled, IDK.

I simply have no opinion on the coin, since its beyond my reach in any regard, I was simply bringing up my recollection of debate about them that has been around for quite a while I believe.

 

Personally, as someone who wrote for a living for almost 40 years as a litigating attorney whose job was to persuade the reader, I think that if anything detracts from the argument, it's not the rhetoric itself, or the substance of the argument, but the way it's presented. The final sentence presenting the basis for the conclusion is almost nine lines long, with multiple clauses, sub-clauses, parentheticals, etc. It could easily, and should, have been separated into at least three shorter sentences. The length makes the argument difficult to follow -- as does the separation of the opening "The fact that . . " from the verb "provides" by using "combined with," "in accordance with," "and," "which," "being," and "and," followed by another "which," "both," "and," and "and." I know how easy it is to get distracted by the flow of an argument as one writes it, but if I had ever submitted a sentence like that in a draft brief to my boss, he probably would have thrown it back at me!

That said, I trust Barry Murphy and David Vagi, who are clearly among the most noted experts on ancient coins in the world. Barring disagreement by one of the handful of people with the same level of expertise, I can't imagine doubting their conclusion.

 

If I read the price list correctly, this would be a $2500 slab (plus insured postage? which would be a courier if I were involved). I don't know if NGC plays this game but I would think the advertising they get from being entrusted with this item would be worth enough to them that they could cut a deal for the privilege of slabbing it. Still, people who own million dollar coins do not need to quibble over a thousand or so. I suspect a few do.

I would not crack out the coin unless it were on a pay per view livestream event where our friends who hate slabs would pay to see it crushed, sawed or axed. Suggestion: Place the slab in a vise, give TIF the image and ask her to produce a limited edition T shirt to be sold with small chunks of plastic that once held the coin.

 

That’s a good analysis of the prose. I wonder if the writing was influenced by a kind of British celebration of the periodic sentence—a building up toward a conclusion through a host of subordinate clauses, as you demonstrate. Maybe the goal here is a rhetorical flourish at the end.

Like @medoraman, I too choked on the phrase “unassailable argument.” I tell my students to make their argument and then let the reader decide whether the case is “unassailable” or not. Otherwise, you’re begging the question.

But in fairness, if I had a potential million dollar coin for sale, I might lay on the rhetoric pretty thick too.

 

@Gavin Richardson (with vicarious, but no less cordial thanks to @DonnaML for the post you answered), Thank you, So Very Much, for being the first person I've heard use the phrase, 'begging the question' correctly, since I was a Philosophy major, four decades ago. Just, Thank you for that. Your observation on British prose is very apt. 'How are the mighty fallen,' since the glory days of Johnson (and that many others), who actually knew how to make this rhetorical construct work.

 

So you're a language prescriptivist, eh? I read somewhere that an analysis of online usage of the phrase showed that considerably more than 90% of the time, "begging the question" is used to mean "raising the question" or "evading the question," rather than the original meaning of "assuming the conclusion." The horse has left the barn, I'm afraid.

 

Here are ancient coins that have brought some high prices.
https://coinsweekly.com/rekordkategorie/the-most-expensive-coins/

 

Fascinating. But odd that it omits the category of Greek gold, which would include all or most of the highest-priced ancient coins in existence.

 

This weekly internet paper just picks topics and sub topics at random and at
their leisure. The dates of some of those sales/auctions are interesting.
Some time has elapsed with many of them and the record still stands.

 

True. It doesn't list any dekadrachms either.

 

That's the money side - the side that gives it its name.

That's the money side, the side that gives it its name and fame.

 

Quite a coup that ROMA snagged this lot. I always considered them to be a
"second tier" auction house. The consignor could have chosen Kunker, NAC
or NOMOS to really maximize their profits. These companies would do a much
better job getting the word out.

 

The upcoming Roma XX auction has some tantalizing coins! Nomos/ CNG/ Kunker would have graded that slabbed aureus as a CH-EF. The last Nomos coins I won where described as "virtually as struck"= NGC GEM MS 5/5 5/5 in other words perfect.

 

Well, okay, @DonnaML, if you want to get really tough, it was Johnson who first ventured very far beyond Swift's ruthless prescriptivism (like the Latinacity of the word, incidentally), in the Preface to the Dictionary.
...What I like less than the expansion and modification of the language (where innovation is concerned, we might compare Hip-Hop lyrics to Shakespeare), is its erosion. For instance, in the case you just demonstrated. That's a frankly shocking statistic, if you consider the number of people who've lost the (...?) original connotation entirely.