Baldwin's St.James - shambolic, unprofessional bunch

Because as a collector/hobbyist, I want a thriving network of dealers, and auctions are a prime source for their stock. A thriving network of dealers is good for our hobby and symptomatic of a strong collector base. Fewer dealers generally means a weaker collector base, less competition and potentially higher retail prices. Fewer dealers also means fewer outlets for collectors to sell coins when the time comes. I'm happy to see dealers make massive profits and stay in business.

For years, auction buyers were primarily dealers. The internet has changed the dynamic. If anyone is tresspassing on the other's historic turf, it's we collectors (bidding remotely).

I don't mean to sound "testy" by the way, just matter of fact. I'm not emotional about this.

 

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Profit is a motivator to make markets. If you did not have Dealers to offer items, then you would have limited to no offerings of items. I CERTAINLY would not buy and sell, providing items to a market, without making a profit. Folks have to eat.

If you expected any business to work in that model, those businesses would be bankrupt.

We need to understand that our Hobby is supplied by people or businesses. That includes the Coins as well as all the surrounding products, such as storage items, books, cabinets, etc.

Whether we agree or not, Ancient Coins are offered as any other market. The Seller must be able to make a profit, or they will no longer offer that service over the long run. It is as Humans have been for millennia.

In my PERSONAL instance, I am an end consumer, strictly a hobbiest. However, I am fully cognizant that some of my purchases may be from other hobbyists, or from Coin Sellers (businesses), such as Vcoins, AUCTIONS, eBay, MA-Shops, and several other PROVIDERS (many are from Coin Talk). I personally, WANT them to make a fair profit so that they are a sustainable source that I can go to later to buy MORE coins.

Sorry, I see no Utopia out there that folks will grow produce, and raise cattle just to GIVE the food away for FREE.

 

No worries at all! I think perhaps this may be a “generational” thing. I’m relatively young and new to the market. I think dealers have immense value, and were I ever to have to liquidate my collection I would sell them to either a dealer or auction house, whoever gave me more money

Point being, I think my issue is when dealers purchase coins available to the end consumer directly. If I lose a coin in a CNG auction to a dealer, I must now go to that dealer to buy the coin, when I could have already just had it from CNG.
If you a hobbyist sell a coin to a dealer, or another dealer sells a coin to a dealer that was never available to the end consumer, and I then buy that coin, I have no issue there.

My “utopia” world is strictly about when a dealer buys a coin that is at the same time being offered to end consumers. That is what I wish would diminish. I have bought from both dealers and auction houses and will continue buying from whoever sells high quality coins at a reasonable rate. I just don’t want to have to compete with those same dealers in a public auction!

 

If you are routinely losing auction coins to dealers, you are not bidding high enough. It's really that simple! Dealers will only bid to the point that a reasonable profit can be made. Don't blame the dealers for taking advantage of that opportunity. Internet bidding has made it much tougher for dealers to buy stock at auction because of collector competition.

 

I’ve really pondered this point... I think that in some instances it’s definitely true and in others, perhaps not. If a coin is very rare, wouldn’t a dealer try to snag it at any price, knowing it’s rarity may in the future allow them to increase the price even further? All buyers are not currently in existence, and new buyers may never have seen that coin in the auction at the time. As such then, the dealers markup is now the market rate...

 

Dealers will see upside in rarity, condition and provenance - more so if these items are not disclosed in the auction (e.g., misattributed coins, undisclosed provenance, overly conservative grading). All three can affect retail pricing. There are limits to the upside, so I don't think a dealer will ever buy "at any price". Most dealers want to regularly turn their stock.

 

I wouldn't characterize the differences of opinion that are being expressed in this thread as testy, but they are substantive rather than just semantic. For example, I agree with Carausius:

and it wouldn't bother me in the least if Frank Robinson won all 132 lots on which he wanted to bid at the Baldwin's-St. James auction.

Every coin I acquire, whether at an auction or a direct purchase, is subject to my own personal budgetary constraints. At an auction, it doesn't matter to me whether I'm outbid by a dealer or a collector bidding for his own collection. If a dealer wins it, I certainly won't be going to him/her to buy it afterward, since I couldn't justify the hammer price let alone the subsequent dealer markup. So the fact that a dealer, rather than another collector, won the coin makes no difference.

I also think that, except for the occasional bidding war and other unusual circumstances, you'll find more "bargains" at auctions since dealers need to allow room for a retail markup if they win a coin, and it's more likely than not that their budget for a particular coin is lower than mine. So I personally welcome dealers who are bidding on coins for their inventory at an auction.

I sense that part of your perspective might be that, at an auction, a collector might pay a lower hammer price if dealers weren't bidding for their inventory. It's not possible to know whether or not this is true, since there isn't any statistical data that supports or refutes this idea, but logically/inferentially I don't think collectors would pay lower prices for coins if dealers were banned from bidding on coins for their inventory.

 

No body is against a fair profit. a fair profit is adding 20% to the price bought, but making it twice or triple is not called profit , it's called RIP off . Sorry for my language , just needed some clarification on that

 

If the coin is PURCHASED at the 2-3 x cost, then that price was agreeable to the Buyer. How is it that ANY percentage profit, such as 20% deemed fair? Who determines that is the market? If someone does NOT buy an item, then it may be too expensive. Margins mean nothing to the purchaser, except if that price is right and it is BOUGHT for that price.

If I LEGALLY FOUND a $1,000,000 Coin, and had $1 worth of gas to find it, and if I want to SELL it... do I have to sell it for $1.25 (20% Gross Margin)?

Have you ever seen the profit margins in clothing?

My point is that margins mean nothing to the Buyer; rather, it is the AGREED upon PRICE that the item is SOLD at.

 

No retail business can survive on a 20% markup.

 

I actually like it when I am competing against dealers. I know they have to figure in overhead and I do not. This gives me-the collector, a significant advantage. Collectors might get carried away and bid too much out of emotion. Many dealers will not because it is primarily a business and they must make a profit to survive.

 

Yes I see your point. But think I have a damaged 1$ bronze coin and find a naive person and sell it for 500 dollars. Isn't that a fraud? Yes he agreed because of his lack of knowledge but that does not clean my action of doing a fraudlant business.

 

No it’s not fraud it is either ignorance or stupidity. Humankind has been taking advantage of the stupidity of others as long as we have existed on this planet.

 

My point was not about FRAUDULENT dealings. Rather, it is what the acceptable price that the MARKET will bear. It is what price is accepted by, and purchased by the market.

 

Agreed I have never made money off the money I buy.

 

Unless the seller gave a false description of the coin, it's not fraud. Except in unusual circumstances, a seller can charge whatever the market can bear.

 

I guess the mantra being used herw "free market" works just as much in this case as well. He can change what he wants and you paid it because you wanted it.

 

That is why there need to be some sort of governance on the market from governments. If its left to whoever sell what ever price he likes then it will be rule of jungle. As an example when some people buy all the foods and store it to make the food price goes up, this is a crime and governments can take action against these kind of hoarding purchases. we have seen this everywhere from communist to capitalist regimes. So my point is government need to supervise on the market so items have a range of prices and don't go crazy up causing all sort of issues like inflation etc

 

I’m struggling to get the quote down to just the relevant part on mobile, so I’m replying to your last paragraph.

If memory serves me properly, I believe that in the most recent CNG Feature Auction in May, it came out that a majority of coins were purchased by a dealer? I know I lost multiple coins to the infamous paddle 2725 where I would have won had that paddle not existed. Maybe I’m bitter still.

One day I will acquire you, coin that haunts my dreams above all others!

 

Hooh boy. This is gonna get ugly, isn't it?