PCGS announces no more bodybags

that's my point!

 

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What's not to trust? They can trust it. It has no grade on it.

You can't stop someone from paying MS68 prices for a coin that doesn't have a grade. And you can't save the world from its own stupidity. Would you remove all the electric sockets from a house because people still cause fires?

Knowing that a coin is still authentic is very valuable. My Flying Eagle which was returned Cleaned Condition is very valuable to me. Remember that coin?






It has a definite market value...

Ruben

 

I think this is a valid point, but we can't allow ourselves to be afraid of scammers. They are going to find new ways to scam no matter what.

It seems to me that the people who don't have the knowledge drop big money on SGS coins because they have Morgan's in them with the MS68 number on the slab rather than the more expensive PCGS with the MS65 on the slab. They look at the number and the priceguide and think they are getting a deal on the SGS coin only to find out they have been taken. It's true that scammers might take a PCGS slab that says "Genuine" on it and say "This very rare 1891 Morgan Dollar has been slabbed as GENUINE by PCGS. The PCGS guide states that this coin in MS66 $16500 and in MS67 jumps to $40000! Be sure to grab this rare genuine piece of American history before it is gone." But, they are going to have pitches like that no matter what. I know we have been telling people to trust PCGS and NGC and they should. But, you know the old saying..."a fool and his money will soon be parted." People need to do the leg work to make sure they aren't getting ripped off.

I would like it if on the slab the reason the coin was ungraded was stated. Like, if they said "Genuine, Improperly Cleaned" or something to say flat out that it is a problem coin. I don't know how they are going to do it.

If it was my choice, this would include several things:
1. Clearly state the coin is genuine
2. Clearly state why the coin is a problem coin
3. Use different color label (such as red label for problem coins)
4. I'd like a details grade (although this may aid scammers)

It would also be perfectly fine with my if PCGS didn't extent this service to every coin. Maybe they should put out a list of "rare" or "key" coins that will provide this service for. For example, maybe PCGS shouldn't slab a problem 1891 Morgan Dollar because it is so common, but slabbing a problem 1893-S Morgan as genuine would be fine because the coin is so rare and valuable and there are so many fakes out there.

I don't know, just a few thoughts.

 

LOL

Old Man - you can get grumpy.

I get the point your making but I still say that without a grade they aren't making a contribution to the scams. Sure, scammers and crooks can use any tool available to make the hook. But you can inconvenience people to no end with protections. Have you noticed you have to sign for cold medicine now and show an ID because a small percentage of people, very small I might add, will turn Psuedoephedrine to MethAmphetamine? Meanwhile the drug companies as a result are now using Phenyephrine to avoid the regulation except that they pulled that drug off the market years ago because it caused sudden heart attacks in segments of the population.

I don't think this is rational. Its a monolithic analysis which fails to take a broad view of the impact of a decision on all levels of society. Its one of the reasons why government sucks. Staircases have been made illegal...

This is the same. If someone sends a coin to PCGS a coin they have a reasonable expectation for that coin to be graded and slabbed. That doesn't mean not slabbed ... but slabbed and graded.

I never understood this idea of not slabbing the coin because of problems. Problems is part of the grade. And it should be, IMO, stated on the label.

1915-0 Nickel
FAKE - NO NUIMASTIC VALUE



1795 Cooper Cent Fright
Problem Coin - Rim Scratch and Corrosion
AG-3 Details with problems




Ruben

 

I think PCGS is on the right track but didn't quite go far enough. If they had taken the suggestion I've been making for years to just put the words "cleaned" or "damaged" or some other one word description for the reason why the coins is receiving "special" treatment, then the problem would be solved. But somehow this simple solution is beyond their comprehension.

I'm also not sure that people will be more likely to be fooled by the new slab than they would be purchasing raw cleaned coins. I know the answer will be the PCGS brand, but most new collectors who know enough to know about PCGS will probably also have at least some knowledge about their grading.

 

Did you send this idea to them in writing?

Ruben

 

hope they get better with the typos on the paperwork or it could be trouble.

 

Like cloudsweeper said maye PCGS just didn't go far enough to at least put the problem on the slab ie, cleaned , coroded , but like mrbrklyn said we can't save the people who won't do a little research 1st before spending large sums on a coin, these are the people who come to us after the fact to find they got ripped off , why don't they come to us for the help we will freely give before spending their money .
rzage

 

Sad but true.

I've always liked the way NGC did it... they put problem coins in a different brand name (NCS). That gives them a "perception gap"; it gives the good name of NGC distance from problem coins. I think that's good marketing, but it also helps with the problem Doug mentions above.

 

That's exactly it... it's yet another thing to learn. And many will learn by error.

Overall, I think this is a good move by PCGS. But it has the downside Doug mentioned.

 

That's the mistake, right there.

If they would boldly spell out the problem, such as "CLEANED", "CORRODED", or "DAMAGED", that would be different. And that's what NCS, ANACS, and ICG do.

I think that would go a long way towards addressing the issue Doug raised.

 

I've never seen a body bagged coin. Do they detail the reason(s) why it was body bagged, or is it just returned with a simple "can't be graded" explanation?

Printing a plain reason on the holder's label as to why a coin didn't get a grade would go a long way toward eliminating any confusion or misconceptions. I'd guess if the coin's owner didn't want it in such a holder they could crack it out if there was no other choice or option offered from the grader.

The only reason I can think of as to why PCGS wouldn't put an explanation on the lable of a coin they refused to grade is time. The time it would take to properly label a damaged/cleaned coin cuts into their bottom line and makes its business less profitable. It appears as if it is something many people favor, so why not do it?

 

I believe that the coin is returned with a number code that codes for a specific type of damage.

 

Yes, they mention the reason it wasn't graded.

They're already doing all the labor intensive work and are printing a label. I don't think time or cost is the reason they don't label the problem.

 

Well, I'd submit that there would be an extra step or two in the slabbing process, however minor, if PCGS were to place a detailed description as to why a coin wasn't assigned a grade. If I'm wrong, I guess I'm left asking the final question in my original post: If detailed labeling is something most collectors favor, why wouldn't PCGS do it with "problem" coins?

 

Like I have said, I totally agree with the type of damage being listed on the slab...hopefully that is something they will do.

If it were up to me, I would also make the label a bit different too. Why not have PCGS use a different color label for problem coins. If they used a red label rather than their blue label for problem coins it would make them stand out.

 

The thing you all are missing, is when a coin is body-bagged, it isn't authenticated. I've seen several sellers using their PCGS Submission form to try and sell something they sent in to PCGS and it came back body-bagged. One was a 1804 DBC (some of you will remember that thread), that wasn't a 1804 but the seller had submitted it as such and because it was body-bagged, it came back with the paperwork that showed it went in as a 1804 and PCGS didn't say it wasn't an 1804. Now, with the new procedure, PCGS will fiunally authenticate what they used to body-bag and it will stop those kinds of fraudulent auctions.

Ribbit

 

BTW Cloud,

I agree that they don't go far enough. None of them do and I don't understand this aversion to stating problems as such.

How about

GRADE 0 - Silver Plating

Grade 0 - Surface removed by mechanical abrasion

They don't really want to think about the value of coins that have problems because its not on the scale??? Some of the things that can pull a coin out of
gradability are strange in my mind. Why is a Rim Dent not like any other wear on a coin?

Ruben

Ruben