My first coin with the Dioscuri

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, May 24, 2020.

  1. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

    Nice addition @DonnaML.
    Mn__Cordius_Rufus-1.png
    Mn. Cordius Rufus. 46 B.C. AR denarius (18 mm, 3.80 g, 8 h). Rome. RVFV[S · III · VIR] behind, heads of the Dioscuri right, wearing pilei surmounted by stars / (MN_ · CORDIV, Venus Verticordia standing facing, head left, Cupid on her shoulder, holding scales and scepter. Crawford 463/1b; HCRI 63a; Sydenham 976b; cf. Cordia 2c (rev. legend)
     
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  3. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    Here's a non-riding view of the Dioscuri. Every now and again, they need to water those horses:

    4597152.jpg

    Rome. The Republic.
    A. Postumius Albinus, 96 BCE.
    AR Denarius (3.85g; 18mm).
    Rome Mint.


    Obverse: Laureate head of Apollo facing right; star with eight rays behind head; X below chin; ROMA below neck.

    Reverse: Dioscuri, holding spears and wearing conical caps and capes, facing left and watering horses at fountain; crescent moon in sky; A.ALBINVS.S.F in exergue.

    References: Crawford 335/10a; Sydenham 612var (8-ray star rather than 6-ray) (R4); Postumia 5.

    Provenance: Ex Jean Elsen Auction 135 (9 Dec 2017) Lot 122.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  4. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    @Fugio1, a beautiful coin. It's one of the best examples I've seen, in terms of the degree of detail still visible. From looking at it closely, I realize that I have to revise my description: it's not only the twin on the right who carries a spear pointing downward behind his horse; it's both of them. Now that I know where to look, I can see the spearhead and the top of the spear shaft on my coin beneath the horse on the left, although I still don't see the other end.

    As far as I can tell from what the catalogs say, this coin is not simply "one of the earliest deviations from what had been a pretty standard depiction of the dioscuri riding right for the previous 80 years," it's the very first such deviation in the depiction of the Dioscuri in the 75-year history of the denarius. As Sear points out, it's also the very first denarius ever to have the "ROMA" legend appear on the obverse instead of the reverse. (Does it surprise anyone to learn that that hadn't happened before?) It's also the second denarius to use the monogrammed form of XVI; the first was Crawford 238/1. For whatever reason, this must have been a time of innovation in the denarius coinage. For example, the first denarius ever to have the head of anyone but Roma appear on the obverse was issued just the previous year, in 137 BCE (the Ti. Veturius denarius [Crawford 234/1] with the head of Mars on the obverse, and the reverse showing a youth holding a pig kneeling between two soldiers).

    And thanks so much to everyone for posting all your examples of Dioscuri doing things other than galloping in the same direction! Like so many threads here, it's been both fascinating and educational. I've learned a lot today. (Not about road apples, though. Even growing up in New York City, I've seen plenty of them in my time!)
     
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  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    At a Baltimore show in 2015, one of the last before his retirement, Jonathan Kern greeted me with. "I've got something for you." Other dealers thought they understood what I should want but Jonathan was usually right. This is the only reclining Dioscuri I have seen.
    Caracalla AE25 - 4 assaria, Tomis, Dioscuri reclining
    pm1275fd3294.jpg

    Challenge: Who has a coin showing one of the brothers but not both? It exists but I don't have one.
     
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  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    That is one unique coin you have there!
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..o wow! kool coin Donna! i never seen one till now of them riding as such (not to mention in others poses:)) :)...i only have one republican Dioscui twins and just got it last Christmas eve, the last coin i purchased till yesterday.....it was @Alegandron's influence on the Dioscuri for me on this type :) check 013.JPG check 015.JPG Antestius AR Denaius 146BC Ob. Roma facing right X front Dog behind with bankers marks.. Rv: Dioscuri twins galloping right..18mm, 3.82gms.
     
  8. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Nice addition, @DonnaML!
    I've seen the ones of Geta with just Castor, but don't have one. On the want list, though. Fishing for bonus points: Postumus has a CASTOR as well. Without naming him, this reverse was also used for Commodus and Tacitus. Why was he more popular than this twin?

    My Alexandrian with both twins:

    Antoninus Pius - Drachm Sarapis Dioskouroi 2669.jpg
    ANTONINUS PIUS
    AE Drachm. 23.36g, 34.1mm. EGYPT, Alexandria, RY 2 (AD 138/9). RPC Online Temp #14776 (6 spec.); Emmett 1652 (R5); Geissen 1299 . O: ΑVΤ Κ Τ ΑΙΛ ΑΔΡ ΑΝΤωΝΙΝΟС ƐVСƐΒ, bare-headed, draped and cuirassed bust right. R: L Β, draped bust of Sarapis wearing kalathos, facing front; on either side, the Dioscuri, each crowned with star, standing, facing, heads turned towards bust, holding spears and whips.
    Notes: Extremely rare type; unique to Antoninus Pius, and only struck in this year.
     
  9. Roerbakmix

    Roerbakmix Well-Known Member

    A rather poor photo - one of my first ancients, a trishekel from Utica, Zeugitana
    upload_2020-5-25_9-44-42.png
    ZEUGITANA, Anonymous. Denomination: AE Trishekel , minted: Utica; ca. 200 BC
    Obv: Jugate laureate heads of the Dioskouroi right; stars above.
    Rev: Two horses standing right; Punic legend above.
    Weight: 14.21g; Ø:26mm. Catalogue: MAA A109; Müller 341; SNG Copenhagen 428.. Provenance: Ex private collection; acq.: 02-2019
     
  10. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

  11. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Well done, @Andres2 ... I like the Constellation pic with the coins. Nice touch. Great coins also! I wish I had the MEMMIUS .
     
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  12. Steven Michael Gardner

    Steven Michael Gardner Well-Known Member

    Here is another example of the Caps of the Dioscuri, you would not catch me wearing these out in public very often, can anyone tell me what a Thyrsos is
    on the reverse, looks like some type of club or rolling pin...?
    4413-Caps-w-Star.jpg
    Colchis, Dioskourias, 150-100 BC, Bronze Æ
    Obv: Caps of the Dioskouroi surmounted by stars
    Rev: ΔI-OΣ KOΥ-ΡIA Δ-OΣ, thyrsos.
    Ref: SNG BM 1021
    4413-Caps-Stars.jpg
     
  13. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    A thyros was a staff made out of the stalk of the giant fennel plant. It is an attribute of the god Dionysus, as on this coin:

    [​IMG]
    Septimius Severus, AD 193-211.
    Roman AR Denarius, 3.22 g, 16.5 mm, 11 h.
    Rome Mint, AD 194.
    Obv: L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP III, laureate head, right.
    Rev: LIBERO PATRI, Liber standing facing, head left, cloak over left shoulder, holding oenochoe and thyrsus; at feet left, panther standing left, catching drips from the jug.
    Refs: RIC 32; BMCRE 64-65; Cohen 301; RCV 6307; Hill 84.
     
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    That is a particularly nice rendition of the jug. My best is the Alexandria mint equivalent also with a good jug. Why is it that these rarely have a decent panther? The only reason we ID it is that the panther was associated with Liber. The jug has details showing it as stemmed with two handles. That is not what I think of as an oenochoe but I am not a skilled student of pottery. It is a question I would ask if I knew whom to ask.
    rf4700rp1891.jpg
     
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  15. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That's a very good example of that reverse design, @dougsmit. It clearly has two handles, as you note.

    There's always the Encyclopaedia Brittanica!

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Sorry, the closest is G Kantharos but the coin shows smaller handles and the top slightly above the handles. I have no idea what a Greek master of table etiquette would call it but I suspect there were several other pottery options that Britannica never even suspected.
     
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  17. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the new likes. The thread may be more than a year old, but I'll still accept them! The coin I posted in the OP is still one of my favorites.

    Here are some more coins showing a thyrsos (Gr.) or thyrsus (Latin). (What's the plural, anyway?) All are associated in some way with Dionysos, Bacchus, or Liber. The first one has the added distinction of including my oldest catalog reference -- from Mionnet in 1809 (available online).

    The thyrsos is defined at NumisWiki as follows: "The thyrsos (thyrsus) is the staff carried by Dionysus (Bacchus) and his associates; topped by a pine cone or a bunch of ivy leaves and wreathed with tendrils of vine or ivy. It was a symbol of the immortality of his believers." See https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Thyrsus .

    My examples:

    Lydia, Philadelphia, AE 17, Late 2nd/Early 1st Centuries BCE, Hermippos, son of Hermogenes, archiereus [magistrate]. Obv. Head of young Dionysos right, wearing ivy-wreath and band across forehead, [Φ]ΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕ[ΩΝ] vertically behind / Rev. Spotted pantheress [leopard] walking left, with head turned back to right, cradling thyrsos bound with fillet (ribbon) against left shoulder, right foreleg raised; ΑΡΧΙΕΡ-ΕΥΣ above, ΕΡΜΙΠΠΟΣ in exergue. Seaby II 4720 [Sear, D., Greek Coins and their Values, Vol. II, Asia & Africa (Seaby 1979), at p. 430 (ill.)]; BMC 22 Lydia 16 [Head, B.V. A Catalogue of Greek Coins in the British Museum, Lydia (London 1901) at p. 189]; SNG Von Aulock II 3057 [Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Deutschland, Sammlung Hans Von Aulock, Vol. 2: Caria, Lydia, Phrygia, Lycia, Pamphylia (Berlin 1962)]; SNG Copenhagen 340 [Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Copenhagen, The Royal Collection of Coins and Medals, Danish National Museum, Part 27, Lydia Part 1 (Copenhagen 1947)]; Imhoof-Blumer 8 [Imhoof-Blumer, Friedrich, Lydische Stadtmünzen, neue Untersuchungen (Leipzig 1897) at pp. 114-115]; Mionnet IV No. 536 [Mionnet, Théodore E., Description de Médailles antiques grecques et romaines, Vol. IV, Lydie (Paris 1809) at p. 98]. 17 mm., 5.02 g. [With old collector’s envelope.] [Footnote omitted.]

    Lydia, Philadelphia AE 17 (Dionysos-Panther).jpg

    Lydia, Tralleis/Tralles, AR Cistophoric Tetradrachm, 78/77 BCE, Magistrate ΠTOΛ (Ptol-). Obv. Cista mystica with lid ajar and serpent emerging; all within ivy wreath / Rev. Bowcase (gorytos) with two serpents (one to left and one to right, heads at top); H [= date = Year 8 = 78/77 BCE, based on Year 1 of the Sullan era being 85/84 BCE*] over ΠTOΛ [PTOL] above, between serpents’ heads, TPAΛ [TRAL] in left field; to right, Dionysos in short chiton standing facing, head left, holding thyrsos in right hand and mask of Silenos in left hand. SNG Copenhagen 662-663 var. [different year] [Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Copenhagen, The Royal Collection of Coins and Medals, Danish National Museum, Part 28, Lydia Part 2 (Copenhagen 1947)]; BMC 22 Lydia 46-48 (p. 333) var. [different years] [Head, B.V., A Catalogue of Greek Coins in the British Museum, Vol. 22, Lydia (London, 1901); SNG von Aulock 3262-3264 var. [different year] [Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Deutschland, Sammlung Hans Von Aulock, Vol. 2: Caria, Lydia, Phrygia, Lycia, Pamphylia (Berlin, 1962)]; Pinder 159 [same year -- “H”]; see also id. 157-158 [different years] [Pinder, M., Über die Cistophoren und über die kaiserlichen Silbermedaillons der Römischen Provinz Asien (Berlin, 1856) at pp. 565-566]. 24 mm., 12.64 g. [probably = 3 drachms, not 4], 1 h. Ex: CNG Auction 225 (13 Jan. 2010), Lot 144. [Foototes omitted.]

    Lydia, Tralleis. AR Cistophoric Tetradrachm. jpg version.jpg

    Roman Republic, Mn. Fonteius C.f., AR Denarius, Rome Mint 85 BCE. Obv. Laureate head of Apollo* right, MN. FONTEI behind (MN and NT in monograms), C.F below chin, thunderbolt below neck / Rev. Cupid or winged Infant Genius seated on goat right, caps (pilei) of the Dioscuri above, thyrsus of Bacchus below; all within laurel-wreath. RSC I Fonteia 10 (ill.), Crawford 353/1c, Sydenham 724a, Sear RCV I 271 (ill.), BMCRR Rome 2478. 20 mm, 3.93 g.
    Fonteius - Infant Genius on Goat jpg version.jpg

    * RSC I identifies as head of Vejovis; Crawford and Sear disagree and identify head as Apollo.

    Roman Republic, C. Vibius Varus, AR Denarius, 42 BCE, Rome Mint. Obv. Head of Bacchus (or Liber)* right, wearing earring and wreath of ivy and grapes / Rev. Spotted panther [leopard]** springing left towards garlanded altar on top of which lies a bearded mask of Silenus or Pan,*** and against which leans a thyrsus with fillet (ribbon); C • VIBIVS in exergue, VARVS upwards to right. Crawford 494/36, RSC I Vibia 24, Sear RCV I 496, Sear Roman Imperators 192 (ill. p. 116), Sydenham 1138, BMCRR 4295. 17 mm., 3.60 g. Ex. Numismatica Ars Classica NAC AG, Auction 83, May 20, 2015, Lot 83; ex. Frank Sternberg Auction 17, Zurich, May 1986, Lot 519.

    Vibius Varus (Bacchus-Panther) Waddell photo jpg image.jpg

    *The identification of the obverse head as Bacchus or Liber is essentially immaterial. See Jones, John Melville, A Dictionary of Ancient Roman Coins (Seaby, London, 1990) at p. 33 (entry for “Bacchus”): “For the Romans . . . . [Bacchus] was generally identified with the Italian deity Liber, whose name is probably derived from the same root as the word ‘libation,’ suggesting that in Italy he was an earth or vegetation spirit who could be worshipped by pouring offerings upon the ground. . . . Bacchus appears rarely upon Roman imperial coins (and when he is given a name, he is called Liber). He is shown as a youthful male figure, nude or partly draped, perhaps with a wreath of ivy leaves. He may bear a thyrsus and be accompanied by Ariadne, a bacchant or maenad, or a panther.”

    ** There is little doubt that the big cats generally referred to as “panthers” in ancient coin reference works are actually leopards (or, occasionally, cheetahs), particularly when their spots are visible, as on this coin. There is, of course no such separate species as a panther; even a black panther is simply a leopard (or, in the Western Hemisphere, a jaguar or cougar) with black fur obscuring the spots The classical world was well aware that pantherae usually had spots. See the many ancient mosaics and other art depicting Dionysos/Bacchus with a leopard, such as this mosaic from the House of the Masks in Delos, from ca. 100 BCE, in the Archaeological Museum of Delos . . . . [Remainder of footnote omitted.]

    ***The mask has more frequently been identified with Pan than with Silenus, but because the moneyer’s branch of the gens Vibia lacks the cognomen “Pansa” (a reason for the appearance of Pan on the coins of moneyers with that cognomen, as a pun), Silenus appears to be a more likely identification, given the association of Silenus with Bacchus. See Jones, supra at p, 289, identifying Silenus as “[a]n elderly attendant of Bacchus.” See also id. at p. 234 (entry for “Pan”), noting that “[a] bearded head which appears on [the obverse of] a silver sestertius of T. Carisius [46 BC), with a reverse type of a panther bearing a thyrsus, has been identified as Pan but is more likely to be a Silenus, matching the Bacchic reverse type.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
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  18. hoth2

    hoth2 Well-Known Member

    Yep. Yep. That reverse is great and I'm a sucker for flow lines.
     
  19. Steven Michael Gardner

    Steven Michael Gardner Well-Known Member

    Donna, how would you think do "Caps of the Dioskouroi w/ stars" come into play with a thyrsos or are these caps assocated with Dionysos, Bacchus, or Liber somehow as I have never noticed them wearing them??
     
  20. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That's a very interesting question, because in Greek, it illustrates an uncommon grammatical phenomenon. Θύρσος (thyrsos) is a second declension masculine noun in Greek and usually takes the plural θύρσοι (thyrsoi); however, in the later poets, it is a heteroclitic plural, taking the form θύρσα, as if it were a second or third declension neuter.

    In Latin, thyrsus is a regular second declension masculine, taking the expected plural form, thyrsī.
     
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  21. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I still look at this coin, and it is WOW!
     
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