Whats the chances this is an original proof set or picked?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by goldrealmoney79, May 10, 2020.

  1. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I have no idea where they got their numbers. You can safely add a zero to that number based on recent sales
     
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  3. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Catching luster and detail together is one of the really hard things to do in a picture. This is especially true for certified items where you are taking photos through the plastic.

    I have found that luster sometimes shows up better when the light source is higher above the subject. Sometimes I have to take two pictures at different angles to show how the coin really looks. Here is an example. Both photos are true.

    1825 Qua Eag An O.jpg 1825 Quarter Eagle A O.jpg
     
  4. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The price of more common date Proof Morgan Dollars has done nothing but drop since I bought this one in PR-64. It's hard to believe that the PR-65 coins have done that much better. The red dot on the reverse is from the camera, not the coin. And no, it was not graded as a cameo for reasons I do not understand.

    1883 silver dollar O 2.jpg 1883 silver dollar R.jpg
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That's the most important piece of info in that catalog in my opinion. I've been telling people for more years than I can count that they have been dipping coins for over 200 years, that I know of, and probably much longer. But few ever choose to believe that. For some reason they seem to think it's fairly recent thing among collectors - but it isn't !
     
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  6. stairstars

    stairstars Well-Known Member

    It also implies a total dislike for toned coins. Extraordinary...how tastes have changed.
     
  7. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    And with that, is the notion that tastes may change again. As the years have gone on I've gotten more and more hesitant to pull the trigger on premiums for toned coinage with that fact in mind.
     
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  8. stairstars

    stairstars Well-Known Member

    I agree - it is now in the eye of the beholder and buyer. Not all toning is beautiful or attractive, but I see some that I consider spectacular.
     
  9. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    As mentioned, coins wrapped in tissue paper and then shipped in an envelope. There are a very few 19th century original sets in cases, but those cases were custom made by outside firms for the mint. John Pittman had a few of those early cased sets from the Mint with the invoices that showed the cost of the coin and the cost for the custom case (and who made it), which I think was $3.

    These original cased sets are EXTREMELY rare, the number still in existence can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

    And when they come up at auction they typically get individually slabbed and broken up.
     
  10. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    It would be very interesting if anyone could offer a possible explanation of why it didn't get a Cameo designation.
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Seems pretty obvious, the toning. The criteria for a coin to be designated cameo or deep cameo isn't just about the frost on the devices, it's also about the contrast between the frost and the mirrored fields being visible. And on heavily toned coins that contrast simply isn't there.
     
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  12. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Okay, Why did those two Proof coins get the cameo designantion?

    1913 Proof Quarter O.jpg 1913 Proof Quarter R.jpg

    And this one which barely has any cameo at all. especially on the reverse. The Cameo designation is very inconsistently applied.

    1869 Dollar O.jpg 1869 Dollar R.jpg
     
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  13. bradgator2

    bradgator2 Well-Known Member

    You would think there would be some standard reflection ratio test for cameos. I have read for PL coins you are supposed to be able to read ruler indications at certain distances in the mirror. I’ve noticed on the deeper PL coins with cameos that there is a very distinct/crisp shadow of the devices projected onto a sheet of paper if you shine a light directly on them. For example:
    209F7A1E-099C-4DE1-A227-CF10E2FB8B4D.jpeg
    4104E001-B09B-454E-9F85-9EC367AF36CE.jpeg

    But a run of the mill, but nicer 64 Morgan, with a great cartwheel but nowhere near PL:

    8EEFFA70-A179-4E7A-A949-38E220510678.jpeg
     
  14. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your prompt reply. :)
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    We are in complete agreement on that count ! But then they are very inconsistent on a great many things, not just that.

    As for the coins you referenced, neither one should get the CAM or DCAM designation in my eyes.

    Oh there most definitely is ! But what John said above is 100% true ! And as a result that test is often completely ignored.

    Ya see, the TPGs ignore a whole lot of things, including their own grading standards - when it suits them to do so ;)
     
  16. goldrealmoney79

    goldrealmoney79 Active Member

    Very informative! Thanks guys! saved me a very expensive lesson
     
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