PR70 or PR69 ?

Or maybe they haven't changed at all and the collectors and dealers just think they have.

 

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OK are these 69 or 70? No rust Kennedy.

 

Ok Ruben you have beautiful $6.50 coins but, not all coins that are shiny are PR69 or 70. The difference between 69 and 70 is quite simple. 69 appears to be perfect with no flaws or blemishes visible WITHOUT the use of magnification. 70 appears to be perfect with 5x magnification with no flaws or blemishes. Give it up. I don't see any reasoning to pay 200 bucks more for a 70 coin than for a 69 coin, but if you have the money to than go ahead help yourself. I am really considering unsubing from this thread because my email box is getting flooded with your nonesense. And if you have RLM blocked than unblock him. He has good things to say that you can learn from. That would be the number 1 reason for joning CT, to learn from others. And you can't very well do that if you have people blocked. And BTW drugs and coins are 2 different things. Well sometimes on rare occasions they may cross in our hobby as I am now starting to think.

Freaky

 

Frankly, your wrong. Not about that coin, but about the ability to judge between 69's and 70's. Just because you don't understand something, that doesn't make it not true. All important processes go through similar validation processes and can prove their claims with on hand statistics?

Can the grading companies do that? No, they can't. So you have to take it with a huge grain of salt when they grade something a 70 and something else a 69, because they have not proven they can make that distinction, and furthermore, the very idea of grading something 70 is frankly insane and defies the very definition of what their trying to do.

Your other point about coming here for education....uh no. I come here for the company and the friendship. And if I learn something, that is great. I enjoy learning new things.


Ruben

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAQv6qmGcis
Look this is a video about pcgs. It is a very long process and they have gotten very good at it. Each coin goes to a grader. The grader examines it and assigns it a grade. Then it is sent off to a second grader. The second grader is not allowed to know the grade the first grader assigned the coin. He determines a grade he think is appropiate for the coin. If the grade matches that both graders made then that is the grade it gets. If it doesn't then it is sent to a THIRD grader who ultimately decides its grade. Coin grading services are OPINIONS and the people who grade them have a proffesionally trained eye for coin grading. If you dont like the way they grade coins then dont send your coins to them. Easy as that. Ooh what better yet go make your own grading scale and grading service.

 

No frankly I was judging your opinion. So if I was giving you my opinion of your opinion then it would be impossible for me to be wrong if you go by definition like you do. And you don't have facts, I do. I have a primary source. Their website and PCGS books are primary sources.

 

Its all a dog and pony show. It doesn't has a scientifically validation of the process. Now granted, by flying by the seat of their pants, they have accomplished a moniker of sanity in a world which was complete crazy prior to the TPGs. But Freak, you must see that their are limits to a system which hasn't been validated that it is consistent, and certain result which is proven by quality control and reference to the validated outcomes. Certainly they are not enough consistent enough to split hairs over a 69 and a 70.

In fact, as a methodology, the consensus of a large number of people on this forum of a grade might be as valid or more valid than 3 experts in a room.

See Wikepedia for an example of what I'm refering to..

Ruben

 

Your entitled to your opinion, but you don't have any primary sources. You have a sales brochure by a respected grading company. You have no statistical validation from them, or statistics on quality control. And I mean this without try to put you down, but your also missing basic concepts in process control and enterprise level product development and quality control.

Most people don't have this background either. But it is the architecture that all the rest of the business output is built on. I can try to explain it to you in the broad outlines, and I've done quite a bit of that while also pointing to supporting documentation, but people take PhD's and MBA's in this stuff.

If your interested in proving that MS70s are valid from any of the graders, you must support that with the primary source data which proves it.

A video don't cut it.

Ruben

 

BTW - do you see any faults on that coin?

Ruben

 

Turn that around to you, and you would be correct about something for once!
Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong--
Your idea has gotten just downright silly.

These grading companies (PCGS, NGC, etc) have been through many test---different companies have tested them, and they work to be the best on the market. The other companies that don't do such thing are still lower on the poll---such as SGS.

The TPG's aren't hiring guys like you who can't grade a 69 from 70 to save their life, but are looking for, and finding, guys who understand how to grade a coin. They are put through much training and work long hours to tweak their skills. The companies have their grading standards and if their standards say that for a coin to be a 70 it must have a strong strike, great luster, no marks to the unaided eye, then that is how they judge it. If their standards say that it has to be all of the above with a 5x then that is what they go by. They aren't flipping coins and they aren't just guessing. There are standards that they go by and if you don't agree with their standards then you go elsewhere.
Until first of all there is ONE grading guide that the WHOLE hobby accepts and uses, and then after that YOU have documented proof (not guesses) that they aren't following market standards and are just "flipping" a coin, then you, or anyone else, doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Speedy

 

I would be intersted in knowing why he should have to post data to prove his idea, when you don't have to do the same? Guess again...

There is no way to truthfuly answer that when all we have are photos taken from one angle with one lighting.

Speedy

 

Then it should be easy to show me the validation data, like any other real enterprise could...

 

Pardon me. I pointed out sources for enterprise process control about 6 times. And you make the absurd contention in the same thread that you can't grade a 69 from a 70 in a photo, and yet the photos are too accurate to use to judge if a 70 is possible.

So what is it? All the dealers and all the graders, a number of whom have posted there strong doubts about the TPG of 70 are all stupid? OK - prove it to me. Show me legitimate accountable data that proves they can do it?

BTW - you'll notice Speedy that I can post this disagreement without without throwing an insult....

just saying...

Ruben

 

We have tried to, but you will not read it.

 

You know, you have been saying this for a while now and it is getting really old. You even claim to have proof of this in the form of an email from a grader, yet you haven't shown it to any of us. If you have it, let's see it...Put up or shut up Ruben.

 

Uh oh Richie. I think you are about to get put on the ignore list with that one. :thumb:

 

Oh well, good company I guess.

I said what needed to be said.

 

Which test? Where? Some me the test results..

Well they can work a little better at proving themselves if they decided to follow a few basic enterprise grade standards. So far I still have no data.

And that is the real stupidity of it, isn't it. But this concept just blows over your head so fast that you can seem to grasp it.

Let me drop a clue stick on you. With a real validated process they don't need specialized experts to determine accurate grades. They can hire a bunch of undereducated 20 year olds and give them a few months of training and get better results than they do currently. Adherence to a validated process has proven in every field of endevour to produce superior then the workmanship of a few experts.

That is right..

Well evidently they DON'T since everyone on this board and everyone in this community has seen 69's that could be 70's and 70's which could be 69's.


Which is all fine except we have no way to judge how flawed the system is because, we have no validation process.

Are you accusing me of saying they flip coins and guess? Guess they often do. Doubt is a sign of intelligence. Flipping coins I never said they do.

Again your accusing me wrongly of saying they flip coins. Your lying about me here and despite the fact that it has been pointed out to you specifically more than once, you repeat this lie. You've shown either an inability to understand what you read, or a purposeful selective hearing. What reinforces your ignorance, you listen to. What might educate you and open you up to new ideas you ignore if it doesn't fit into your world view.

So this sums up your entire argument

A) - I'm Speedy and I selectively listen.
B) - I believe in top tier TPGers religiously and take all their marketing claptrap as gospel.
C) - I have no real evidence, not a single shred of quantitative or qualitative data that proves these TPGs can either define adequately or produce 70 grades, but because they tell me so I fall back to B)
D) - I believe that everyone else believes this, and that just further proves that they're grading of 70's is true.
E) - The market supports this...



Uh - yeah Speedy. Better you believe that than me. You've staked out an extreme position without any documentation which can prove it.

Let me know when you come down with the Tablets, Moses.

Ruben

 

Too many insults. I lost count!

 

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