Clearly Some people have too much money and not enough brains

Yeah - I don't believe that. I'm pretty smart and can observe things. And one of the things I've observed is private emails from graders in response to me asking them if it was worth getting a 70 graded coin that difference between a 69 and a 70 in their shop is a flip of the coin (pun intended) and if you crack them out and resubmit them the majority of 70's will come back as 69's.

They can NOT NOT NOT reproduce the same result consistently.

And that is pretty much my last word on it. There is too much weight put on the grade of a 70 and it is completely undeserving. It is just an opinion at a particular place and time by a number of experts. When they dispose of Market grading then comeback and I'd be willing to relook at the 70 grades.

Ruben

 

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BTW - I'll repeat what I said. If I can't see the difference with a naked eye, there is no difference. Furthermore, I'm sorry, your dit in the E (and there is such a strike imperfection in the back FWIW) is not worth 5,0000 USD

Ruben

 

Are you claiming to have private e-mails from PCGS and NGC graders admitting that they arbitrarily assign 69 and 70 grades. If so, you could probably destroy the entire third party grading system by posting them publicly as I am pretty sure that would destroy consumer confidence. If these e-mails are from any graders other than PCGS or NGC, I don't know why you would even mention it as it is useless information. Furthermore if I ran a grading company and found out the graders were corresponding with customers about company grading practices I would fire them immediately.

I can submit my Jefferson commemorative over 100 times and it will never come back MS70. Maybe some other coins are more difficult. I am not claiming that the TPG success rate is 100%, but they are certainly more consistent than you are. Just because you are smart and observant and collect coins does not qualify you as a professional grader. I can throw a football, but that doesn't mean I can play quarterback in the NFL. These guys do this for a living, maybe we should all give them a little more respect. The consensus in this thread seems to be that everyone thinks there is a monkey in room flipping a quarter to decide between PF69 and PF70.

 

I don't think there is a monkey in the room flipping quarters. I simply believe that the line between MS69 and MS70 is so fine that it is hard to distinguish. We all know that all grades have nicer coins than others...no MS65 is the same and the same is true for MS69 coins, they all have minute differences. My feeling about coins that grade 70 is they are basically sliders...they could have gone 69 one day and 70 the next. I have never seen anything that "locks" a coin as a 70.

In the case of that Jefferson, I will admit that I missed that mark when I first looked over the coin. I didn't look at it super close...and I missed it. In my opinion, I am a little surprised that coin graded MS69 with a mark like that. I would have expected it as an MS68. But, I'm not a professional...just an amateur who loves coins.

It is my opinion to prefer coins that might have the smallest imperfection if I can get another different coin with that money saved. That's the trade off that I take. Again, with these modern commeratives...the difference in value typically isn't that much. But, when it's a difference of $20 or $5000 because of one little mark that I probably won't even see unless I look really close...I'll take the $20 coin. That's just how I feel.

I feel like this conversation has gotten a little heated just because we all have our own view of "value." That MS70 Ike may have gone for $5000...it had that value to someone out there with a lot of money. But it doesn't to me...and I think that is how the majority of people here think. That's all.

 

I'm not saying that the graders are purposefully defrauding the public. I'm saying that the results are NOT reproducible. Your a scientist. You understand this concept. You know, like Fleischmann and Pons. The results can't be, what in the Pharmaceutic business is called Validated. And you can't do quality assurance until you can Validate a process.

What I'm saying is that they readily admit that they can't reproduce their grades with precision at all grade levels for a significant portion of coins, and more so with the 69 and 70's where they have virtually no shot since the grading definitions for a 70 are nearly undefined. They'll TELL you if you speak to them, "We could have graded that one a 70 or this one a 69 but at the time we felt otherwise". And your WRONG. If you submitted your Jefferson 10,000 times, it will come back MS 70 probably a dozen times. But even more to the point, people resubmit their coins and argue with them all the time, and Low and Behold, they often can change their mind.

What they've defined as the difference between 69 and 70 is so minuscule that it can't be humanly accessed. In fact, the grade of 70 was designed to never be reached. It was a theoretically perfect coin.

And I'm also saying this, any flaw in a coin that can not be seen with a naked eye is considered NOT GRADEABLE CRITERIA.

Lastly, in the 1 in billion (or 100 billion shot) shot that a coin might be actually perfect when compared to the theoretical, that difference is so minuscule to high end 69's that valuing a 20 dollar coin to $5000 is completely bubble economics. And if you sneeze on that coin --- opps, 5k down the tube. Or if the coin tones, tarnishes, gets a sliding scratch etc etc. Kiss it all good-bye. And people actually send these 70 graded pieces THROUGH THE MAIL. Have you ever seen what UPS, Fedex and the Postal Service does to its packages.

Yeah - I believe in 70 grades like I believe in the tooth fairy. And most of the graders, while they hate to admit it, when pressed on the actually facts, they agree.


What I'm saying is if I crack open 500 70 cases, not even 10% are likely to come back again as 70, and granted, that is a significant percentage over the bulk of coins.

But most importantly, I'm saying that I don't believe that the differential in a grading services opinion, between a 69 and 70 is worth 50 TIMES the price of a 69, not only for all the reasons I stated:

A) They can't repeat their results
B) The standard was designed to be never reached
C) The coins travel and live in real time
D) That the graders admit that they are dancing on the head of a pin with a 70 grade
E) A 70 if it exists has an very short half-life
F) The inability of repeating results means the results are INVALID

but also it's tossing a lot of money on a bad supposition and your better off playing roulette at Atlantic City because then you at least KNOW the odds are against you.

And frankly they are better odds.

Ruben

 

Lets play your game:

Ungraded Coins: Are they PF or MS 70 - First sample




Grade 69 or 70? Or maybe it is a 68..

Tell the the faults you see even in this 20x blow up

 

Sample number 2. Is it PF 70 or not?




http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/american_silver_eagle_obverse.tif
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/american_silver_eagle_reverse.tif

In this case I have TIF images which REALLY expand and blow up

Ruben

 

Sample 3 - 69 or 70?

http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/coins/ase_2006_unc_w_obv_lg_color_fixed.png
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/coins/ase_2006_unc_w_rev_lg_color_fixed.png

 

Sample 4

http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/coins/asa_2007_proof_obverse.png
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/coins/asa_2007_proof_reverse.png

69 or 70?

 

Sample 5 - I showed this already this week so I'll spare the image presentation

http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/comemeagles2008/ameaglecomem_clad_obverse_01.jpg
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/comemeagles2008/ameaglecomem_clad_reverse_01.jpg

As complex as this is, there has to be something here

69? 70?

Ruben

 

Sample 6 - Silver Eagle Com

http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/comemeagles2008/ameaglecomem_silver_obverse_01.jpg
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/comemeagles2008/ameaglecomem_silver_reverse_01.jpg

 

Sample 7 - ASE 2008

Now here I will tell you something. There was a little mixing in the dies between the rays and the letter 'L' in every ASE I'd seen including the two PF 70's I'd seen in my hands

In 2008 the mint 'fixed' this. That mint has such bad quality....

http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/comemeagles2008/ase2008_obverse_01.jpg
http://www.mrbrklyn.com/coins/comemeagles2008/ase2008_reverse_01.jpg

 

You are making a whole bunch of assumptions without facts in order to prove a point that no matter how hard you try can easily be disputed.

You stated that you had e-mails from graders who admitted that the assignment of an PF70 grade is arbitrary. I will state without a doubt that you don't have an e-mail from a PCGS or NGC grader since you refused to respond to my original comment on the subject. Maybe you misunderstood my original comment that if the grader was from another TPG then it was useless information. What that meant was that your attempt to discredit PCGS's grading performance by offering practices of a third world TPG was cheap and only hurts your own credibility.

Please explain how almost 10,000 1977-S IKE's were submitted and only 13 were given a grade of PF70. The grading companies don't change their grading standards like underwear. They certainly have written standards for all of the assigned grades (including MS70) and the standards are followed and quality control is applied by the fact that multiple graders must view each coin. You are welcome to believe that if you resubmitted those 10,000 coins again that it would yield 100 PF70's, but you are wrong. PCGS will apply the same standard which they have been applying that originally resulted in a 0.1% of all 1977-S IKE's getting a PF70 grade.

Do you have written proof that the TPG's created the concept of MS70 to be used only as a theoretical grade that is unreachable. If you do, I would love to see it. I think you conjured that up out of thin air.

I show you an example of an obvious difference between and MS69 & MS70 and you respond by saying that the difference can't be humanly accessed. In addition, it is proposterous that multiple graders are going to miss the hit on that coin and give it an MS70. You then want to play my game by posting multiple photos of proof coins which I already stated can't be accurately graded via photos.

The only thing in you entire post that makes any sense is the fact that people will send raw potential MS70 coins in the mail and expect them to arrive unharmed. However, once they are encapsulated, how do you expect them to get damaged. Toning doesn't affect the grade, mucus can be cleaned off the plastic, and I see know way for the surface to be touched.

The price differential between a 69 and 70 is completely dependent upon the population. In the case of the 1993 Jefferson Commem the pop in MS69 is 3690/533. A ratio of 7 to 1 will not result in a huge premium for the 70 which in this case is about $100 more. However the 1977-S IKE in PF69 has a population of 9700/13. A ratio of 700 to 1 will and did result in a huge premium of $5,000. You might not like that a top pop coin with a population of 13 carries a $5K price tag but you will find that it is consistent with other coins with similar populations.

Until you show a written correspondence from either PCGS or NGC that states they arbitrarily assign 70 grades that they know are not repeatable, I am going to ignore your comments about what graders know and admit to. The fact is that the modern submissions are a huge part of the PCGS and NGC business and if they were doing what you are saying they would be perpetrating fraud.

Maybe I should buy a 1977-S IKE PF70, I did very well at the poker table last night.

 

Alright. Your just making stuff up now, pretending you have never read the red book, and frankly your off in lala land if you thing that PCGS applies the same standards everytime they grade a coin. Its a useless conversation at this point because you dispute what is obvious and what has been proven, which is that TPGer are inconisistant in both grading and standards. In fact, standards have changed so much over the years that an ANACs grade from the year days is a worthless stamp on a slab.

Furthermore, you just ignor the thousands of slabs posted here where coins have been graded differently by different companies, and THREADS HERE that they graded differently by the SAME company. And below this you just make up what I said and reinterpret what I plainly wrote in order to construct your argument, which I frankly find distasteful and insulting.

At this point you've lost your grip and its too bad because this could have been a bit more fun to go through the coins I posted and see if anyone can distinguish them from a 70. SO I'm ending this conversation now.

And it is your loss because I have a clue for you, there are a few TPGer here in this forum, and if you actually take time to exhale, you might meet some of them.

 

BTW - Your Jefferson is more like a 68 than a 69. If you send it in again I bet it comes back as a 68.

Ruben

 

i have never seen a toned coin get a 70 can you post a pic where a toned coin has

 

if you think that no one can tell the difference between a 69 and 70 on this board by looking at pics then you are right we cant and we wont and if anyone can claim to distinguish such by look at pics they are outright lying. Even doug wont claim that he can do it on a consistent basis and you can go ask Doug PCGS gives out 70 on a quota basis. also clembo has sent coins with imperfections and they have come back 70 from NGC. where am i going with this? Just because TPG's give a grade out it doesnt make it the right grade and doesnt make people here on the forum less knowledgeable

 

I will sum it up for people who look at my opinion for these moderns so all of you get it in one shot. I am not arguing against or for anything that has been said by anyone on this forum and if you dont agree with what i have written here thats fine too. i am just giving my opinion to people who spend money on coins based on what i say.

1) dont buy a 70 coin if you cant distinguish it from a 69 based on what is on the slab
2) dont listen to anyone who says a 70 coin can be graded from a pic not worth it
3) TPG's make mistakes and if they screw up on your 70 coin and you dont see it .... you get the drift
4) one TPG is known to give out 70's willy nilly and another TPG is know to use a quota. People will say all sorts of things to question this based on a bunch of things but if you are just a collector move to point no 5
5) For modern comemms buy the coin that you like dont worry about 68, 69, 70 make sure you like the haze, tone, cameo effect etc before you buy. thats how i buy them while making sure i dont overpay (that is the key)
6) there is no reason to send a modern comem for grading ever either buy one already slabbed or one thats in OGP. I like mine in OGP personally
7) if you get half your money back when its time to sell (discounting the change in value of the precious metal) you did good

Hope this helps

 

Ah, the old 69 v 70 argument.


simple: Buy the coin not the plastic.