Discoveries of advanced pre-flood civiliztions

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by panzerman, Mar 6, 2020.

  1. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Hello again Steve,

    Well - if you want to favour any of these further politicised efforts from the indefatigable @David Atherton (or indeed open to anyone - but DA himself), just let me know, otherwise I will spare folk, and save my time.

    Rob T
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
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  3. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Strange times indeed when exposing the racist wing of pseudoarchaeology is considered 'political'.
     
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  4. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    If this thread had a soundtrack.



    Of course they are Canadian. :angelic:
     
  5. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    By what measure are the Clovis people-whatever their origins! evidence of an advanced civilisation? And this is the crux of Panzerman's tweak the illuminti original post-advanced antediluvian civilisations New Evidence for the existence of!None so far.
    Ghosts found on Paranormal lockdown etc-none.
    Might there be a connection-lots of fantasists-wishful thinkers-occultists-Illuminati types-evidence-none
    This might start to lead you to conclude that advanced antediluvian civilisations probably never existed-like paranormal events.
    Occams razor anyone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
  6. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    I don't believe there were any "advanced civilizations" in ancient times before the archaeological record indicates it. The idea that intelligent beings or whatever had "gifted" humanity in earlier times and somehow these societies were destroyed by floods or earthquakes, with a long intermediate period before civilization perked up again is a non-sequitur.
     
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  7. Volodya

    Volodya Junior Member

    Citation needed!

    s/
     
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  8. NewStyleKing

    NewStyleKing Beware of Greeks bearing wreaths

    I doubt if any religious person believe God is personally dissing them with disease nowadays-things change-gullibility and superstition doesn't sadly just god doesn't get the just deserts anymore
     
  9. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Don't really have one. Where else would they have thought they came from?
     
  10. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Even in the time of the "Black Death", Pope Clemente VI, residing in Avignon stated it was God's wrath. Clearly since he saw the terrible political scene/ wars/ famine at that time in history. When rumors spread that the Jews where to blame/ the Pope issued edicts to protect them, and blamed the Devil for poisoning the people's minds. Today, all Church leaders would use science to explain pandemics.
     
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  11. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Hippocrates believed diseases came from a variety of natural sources, such as dietary indiscretion, excessive drink, "bad air," cold temperatures, and such. He wrote a treatise about epilepsy arguing that it was not due to supernatural forces. While many ancient people were superstitious, some were not.

    It's informative to read his treatise, Of the Epidemics, from ca 400 BC. He describes weather conditions and astronomical phenomena though he doesn't explicitly blame them. He mostly describes the signs and symptoms of the patients affected.

    He notes:

    With regard to diseases, the circumstances from which we form a judgment of them are,- by attending to the general nature of all, and the peculiar nature of each individual,- to the disease, the patient, and the applications,- to the person who applies them, as that makes a difference for better or for worse,- to the whole constitution of the season, and particularly to the state of the heavens, and the nature of each country;- to the patient's habits, regimen, and pursuits;- to his conversation, manners, taciturnity, thoughts, sleep, or absence of sleep, and sometimes his dreams, what and when they occur;- to his picking and scratching;- to his tears;- to the alvine discharges, urine, sputa, and vomitings; and to the changes of diseases from the one into the other;- to the deposits, whether of a deadly or critical character;- to the sweat, coldness, rigor, cough, sneezing, hiccup, respiration, eructation, flatulence, whether passed silently or with a noise;- to hemorrhages and hemorrhoids;- from these, and their consequences, we must form our judgment.​
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
  12. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    He was dead on....
    Too much booze/ pollution/ overeating cause much harm to our health/ thankfully there where no drugs back in Hippocrates time, these are the number one killer of humans. Cold temperatures you can always dress for/ I prefer cold to heat anyday. Hopefully we will have a cooler Summer here.
     
  13. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    30 seconds of research:

    "The history of drug use goes back many centuries. Narcotics were known to ancient people and their civilizations not only for religious reasons but also for medical purposes [1]. Drugs were used at the oracle of the ancient world and also during initiation ceremonies. Many scholars believe the prophetic delusions of the Oracle “Pithia” were the result of drug use [2]. Opium is surely the most famous medicine in the history of our world. The ancient Greeks knew of the drug since the prehistoric and Minoan years [3]. Opium was a basic component of an ancient greek remedy called the “Thiriaki” (Θηριακή) which was considered as an exceptional therapeutic drug for more than 4,000 years [4]. There is considerable evidence that opium-based medicines found use since the pre-historical and Minoan times [1]. The drug became part of the therapeutic tools of doctors all over the world for many centuries including the 20th century pharmaceutical companies. As Marios Marcellos professor of pharmacology at the University of Ioannina notes, many European doctors from the medieval ages through the 17th century were called Doctor Opiatus, due to their frequent prescription of opium [5]. Cannabis is also a well-known drug for its psychotropic qualities since the ancient times [6]."

    This paper can be found here.
    https://www.hsj.gr/medicine/drug-ad...essor-demetrios-kouretas-in-1930.php?aid=3625
     
  14. Stevearino

    Stevearino Well-Known Member

    @EWC3: Hi Rob, what I found eye-opening was how white supremacists were using these theories. I just had not been familiar with this type of thing. I didn't view Zaitchik's article as something to be peer-reviewed or anything worthy of scientific journals. The "wow factor" for me is that there is a whole nasty under-belly of racists using what, in other circumstances are legitimate concepts (e.g., the Solutreans and the fact that there were in fact folks who built mounds).

    Steve
     
  15. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    It's my understanding that regardless of how and by whom the Solutrean theory has been misused, any possible legitimacy it may once have had as a minority position has been conclusively negated by the last couple of decades of genetic research.
     
  16. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

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  17. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

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  18. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Thanks Steve. Lets set aside the facts that

    a) this "whole" seems to be just a small bunch of racist cranks, and

    b) they apparently hold views contradicting the scientific Solutrean theory.

    The main thing that comes out of your mail is that it is not about the past. It is about 21st century politics.

    This is just what I fear - that archaeology is increasingly less about fascination with understanding the past - but rather - it is transitioning into mere agitprop for present day political zealotry.

    Rob T
     
  19. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    I wonder where you got your understanding from @DonnaML ? It seems, apparently like Steve and @Roman Collector , you think it is in that piece by the archaeo-zealot Jennifer Raff?

    If so – please point out the passage in it where “genetic research…..conclusively negated….the Solutrian theory”.

    And if you cannot, well, I apologise when I make mistakes. I am curious to find out if you do likewise.

    Rob T

    PS – It seems all three of you are Yanks? So maybe you do not understand what sort of paper The Guardian is?
     
  20. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    If you're going to die on a hill, the Solutrean theory should not be the one!

    'The genetic piece of one recent argument for a trans-Atlantic migration — known as the Solutrean hypothesis — contended that the presence of mitochondrial haplogroup X2a in Native American populations provided evidence for ancient gene flow from Europe or the Middle East into North America. The hypothesis suggested that the North American Clovis culture dated roughly 13,000 years ago was directly descended from the Solutrean culture of southwestern Europe dated roughly 23,000 years before present.

    However, Raff and Bolnick said in analyzing all recent genetic studies of the earliest Native Americans they didn't find anything consistent with a possible early trans-Atlantic migration. For example, the recent publication of the complete genome from the 8,500-year-old Kennewick Man, found in Washington state in 1996, showed that he belonged to haplogroup X2a but had no indication of recent European ancestry throughout the rest of his genome. Michael Crawford, head of KU's Laboratory of Biological Anthropology and a professor of anthropology, was a co-author on that genetic project.

    Raff said it was significant that Kennewick Man was on the West Coast, as it put the oldest and most ancestral lineage of X2a ever recovered in a geographic region more consistent with a migration from Siberia across the land bridge known as Beringia, which no longer exists between Alaska and Siberia, than a migration across the Atlantic. Prior to the sequencing of his genome, Kennewick Man had been used as an argument to support non-Siberian ancestry, because his skull looked different from those of later Native Americans. But his genome, and that of other ancient Americans with distinctive skull shapes, showed that was not true.

    "When you look at the complete genome of ancient Native Americans up until now, we see no evidence for ancient European ancestry," she said.'

    The full article can be read here.

    https://college.ku.edu/about/news/g...cient-trans-atlantic-migration-professor-says

    Pretty conclusive. No one in serious archaeological circles debates this fringe theory anymore. Today it is only touted by racists and internet cranks.
     
  21. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    On the contrary it is ceaselessly discussed by you – the culprit who started this fiasco. Also by one-trick-pony “archaeologist” Jennifer Raff – its her personal political
    web-soap-box. She goes on and on and on about it.

    Yep – look in the mirror

    Meanwhile, nothing from @DonnaML I still await either corroboration or retraction, as surely any self respecting critic would provide?

    Rob T
     
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