Determining Authenticity of Trade Dollar from eBay

At first glance I thought counterfeit , but the more I looked at it there was nothing I could point out that would condemn it . I do agree with what ksparrow said about the rims and dentrils . The rims are really wide comrared to my '75-S , I did look at some '76-S TDs on Heritage and theirs were a little wider than mine but still not as wide as yours . Without a picture of the Die parings used on your coin it's a hard call to make , I myself would want it verified by a top tpg . Just my opinion your coin troubles me just because of the vast number of fakes out there ,and its overall look , see if he'll let you send it in .
rzage:smile

 

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It's a good one!

I wonder if the seller's story is true about how long it's been in the famly? The toning looks real, not artificial, but since it's so heavily toned, it makes me wonder if it's been artificially toned to hide the signs of being a counterfeit?

Ribbit

 

Sorry to hear that.

 

What really gave it away to me was as I picked the coin up this morning, I knew that it felt lighter than a Morgan Dollar which is what caused the exercise for me to bring in some calibrated weights and check out the scale.

Good news is that it was purchased using PayPal and is supposedly backed by their loss provision should the seller not make good (and I believe he will).

Sad news is that this seller had previously sold two other different Trade Dollars on eBay in recent weeks. I can only hope that the buyers either purchased a coin that was legitimate or that they found out otherwise and got their money back.

Best part of this story is how a group of knowledgable numismatists came together to give their unbiased assistance to a collector who needed their expertise. For that, my friends, I am all the richer.

My heartfelt thanks to each and every one of you! :smile

 

DMPL, would you mind posting the item number for the coin you bought? And, you're welcome, glad to be of some help.

 

350098474450

 

Don't want to belabor a bad situation, but after sending the coin back this morning. I decided to do some close up examinations of the scans I made when the coin arrived on Thursday.

The following image was cropped from the reverse scan and was not something that I had noticed when examining the coin with a 20X loupe. Is it possible that the recessed area with the raised metal in the center could be a gate mark? Sure doesn't look like any mark I have ever seen on any other coin.

 

God @#%^ Chinese.....

 

It appears that the words "TRADE DOLLAR" are rotated about one degree counter-clockwise from other examples I've checked. Draw a line in line with the left side of the vertical bars in the T, R, D, E and L and compare where they hit the letters in the motto "420 GRAINS, 900 FINE"; They don't seem to line up as they should. I'm not an expert, my bifocals aren't as good as they once were, and die varieties may exist so maybe what I'm seeing is just BS.

 

Does 'gate mark'= spot where sprue was broken off on a cast copy? If so I would expect that to be right on the edge, where it would be filed off. (correct me please if I misunderstood) I think this is a copy using a transfer technique to make a false die, which was then used to stamp the coin out of a disc of soft heated metal. Since the transfer material shrinks to some extent, in order to get the coin the right diameter they have to make the fake die wider, so the rims get fatter. I am not sure exactly how they do this, but often the rims are grainy and full of pits. Tiny holes, with a small blob of metal in them, are very common in the dentils of transfer die fakes, and one of the easiest ways to out these forgeries-- but you have to be looking at nice big photos or else have it in hand with at least a 10x loupe-- the usual ebay photos are too small to see them, one reason so many are sold. Another technique is to apply the rim separately to the stamped out center of the coin, but you can usually spot a seam when this is done, or it will be coming apart.

 

As a separate matter, I was looking at the other 2 trade dollars sold by the seller recently. This 1876-s 350093959870 looks like it has problems on the obv. including poor dentils around k-3 and the 'flag' on the 7 in the date looks really 'thick.' On the 3d coin sold, an 1874, 350091020038 , nothing really stands out as bad. I note that the seller noted in the descriptions of both of these that they were the correct weight when he took them to a dealer. This was not noted in the description of the coin purchased by dmpl, which leads me to wonder if the seller knew it was the wrong weight but decided to list it anyway. It stands to reason that he would have taken all 3 to be checked at the same time, right? Something tells me we haven't seen the last of this coin.

 

Excellent detective work. I knew he had previously sold two other Trade Dollars on eBay, but I did not look at his descriptions.

Will be watching eBay closely, and that coin had better not show up again.

I was planning on leaving a neutral feedback when I received reimbursement with the presumption that he didn't know any better. Your finding causes me to strongly consider leaving a negative feedback instead.

He has been given until October 4 to make full restitution, and feedback will be left on that date. The formal PayPal complaint process was initiated yesterday.

 

Those stinking chinese counterfeiting devils. It makes me so MAD!!!

 

Like I said in a PM to you , they had to shoot the metal in somewhere .
rzage

 

And the no morals bas----s that sell them , knowing they are fake .
rzage

 

rusty are you seeling your trade dollar for a buck ?

 

No , he would've gave me my money back with no problem , he's a victam too , how do you spell victum , anyways I kinda like it just cause it's the best fake I ever saw .
rzage:thumb::kewl:

 

victim

 

Wouldn't you know it , the only vowel I didn't try
rzage:hatch::hammer:

 

o am trying to get a new coin it will be a fitting way to get back into retirement