Ebay seller relists known counterfeit coin

sniped!

 

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Here is a perfect example of what's happening with the replicas out of China.

Here's a 1796 DBD replica out of China:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Replica-1796-Draped-Bust-90-Silver-Dollar_W0QQitemZ140268725542QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140268725542&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Then here it is in Germany for sale without REPLICA stamped on it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260287824064&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

It's easy to tell this counterfeit, since it's a 1795 BB-51 with a recut date and it doesn't match up with any known 1796's.

This proves you can get the quality replicas from China without REPLICA stamped on them and there are peeps doing this, then reselling them as authentic and until Ebay gets off their butts and starts going after these criminals, it's only going to get worse.

Ribbit

Ps: For CFE Members, let the guys know I won't be back. I got NARU'd and I've had all I can take of FraudBay! And without an Ebay account, I can't be a member of CFE.

 

****! Toad, feel free to PM me.

 

They have provided a mechanism for knowledgeable people to report counterfeits and other fraudulent listings. That doesn't sound like doing "nothing".

Perhaps, just maybe, the experts that ebay uses are more knowledgeable than we amateurs about what is fake and what is not.

Ebay is a service, not a police force. They can not "go after" anyone. What they can do is to rely on buyer's and seller's reports to weed out fraudulent listings and, if waranted after proper review, remove the listing and/or ban the seller.

Remember, sales on ebay include lots of other things that have been counterfeited or have otherwise violated copyrights or patent rights, not to mention listing violations - clothing, Barbie Dolls, CDs/DVDs, auto parts, cell phones, stamps, watches, pottery, artwork, antiques, jewelry, electronic games, pens, etc.

It's simply not possible for them to micro-manage each and every of the hundreds of thousands listings they get every week. I think their going so far as to institute the CCW group is a great concession to the concerns of the numismatic community and as much as we can ask for. Of course, if we don't do our part then we have no right to be critical.

 

What I meant by "go after" is for them to actively search for fraud on Ebay. In the CFE it was easy for us to find it, so why can't Ebay find it? Why? They don't look! They don't care!

We would report so much and they would drag their feet and someone would get scammed and if we were lucky, enough buyers would complain and the seller finally gets NARU'd. So what good did we do? I'm starting to think reporting the fraud doesn't do any good, other than delay the inevitable, that the only way to get peeps removed is to actually buy the items and then complain but then it takes forever to get a refund out of PayPal, which is harder than trying to get your insurance to cover something.

Ribbit

 

You may think that reporting does no good, but I can tell you 100% for sure - Not reporting DOES do no good.

To quote myself:

Ebay is a business, meant to generate a profit by charging fees to their users. They simply provide a place for sellers to list their wares. I don't know how many times and in how many ways this can be said but; they simply can not police each and every listing on their site. Whether you know it or not, ebay does have an internal team that randomly examines listings, but the reality of time and ability means they can not check more than a few hundred each week.

Some day when you have nothing better to do, sit down at your computer, log into ebay and then start randomly looking at llistings for all categories. This would include making sure the title doesn't violate listing policies, reading the entire description of the item and making sure that amy picture included is actually representative of the item being sold. Also, review the feedback to help guide your decision. Don't limit your reviews only to items you are familiar with. At the end of a couple hours tell us how many you reviewed and how many were accurate vs. fraudulent. Then translate that into 40 hours a week and tell us if you could accurately do the job, remembering that you can not be wrong and remove a listing in error.

An imperfect analogy is a magazine that sells advertising to stay in business. There is no way they can review every ad they have, plenty of which may be for products or servicces that aren't on the up and up. Only complaints from readers can make a difference.

Disclaimer: I don't work for ebay nor do I know anybody who does. I do occasionally buy and sell items on ebay and there are policies that I'm not particularly happy with, but I work with the system both as a seller and as a buyer. And I do often report listings that I have concerns about.

 

Although I agree with the principal of your post, a fair part of the screening could easily be done by or facilitated by computers either by scanning the listings, or, better, by scanning them before allowing the listing. As an example, "SGS" is not allowed in any numismatic listing. I will bet I could write a program to catch that. Yet eBay has done nothing. I am not sure what percent could be handled like that (probably not that large), but something is better than nothing and that is what we have now.

 

I just posted SGS items last week and there were over 100 of them, not including Aboncom which has hundreds of them that are SGS listing violations:

http://stores.ebay.com/Abon-Enterprises

So David, I spent about an hour doing that search and posting them on CFE and found around 100 listings in vioation of Ebay's SGS listing policy and as RLM pointed out, Ebay could use software to assist them in weeding out certain problems (1804 Draped Bust Dollars would be a good one also), so why hasn't Ebay done anything about it? Why are their resources so strapped they cannot catch the fraud that the CFE catches? Why do they NOT NARU sellers that are intentionally defrauding buyers and have been caught red-handed doing it?

I liken this to the light bulb question - How many peeps have to be defrauded before Ebay will do something bout it, whether intentional or not, and how many if it is intentional?

The answer to both of those questions is greater than one and I think there's something wrong with that answer!

Ribbit

 

Why not?

 

That is very simple:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html

eBay does not permit the sale of coins or paper money that are fraudulent or improperly described. Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency, as well as equipment designed to make counterfeit currency. Accordingly, sellers are not permitted to list these types of items on eBay.

Since SGS does not follow the ANA guidelines on grading coins, they are considered improperly described and is why they didn't make the list of authorized TPG's on Ebay:

When listing a certified coin, the coin must be certified by one of the following authorized grading companies:

• Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)
• Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS)
• Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS)
• Independent Coin Grading (ICG)
• ANACS

In addition, listings for certified coins:

• Must be assigned the appropriate grading attributes in each listing. Sellers must select the appropriate grading attributes within the Sell Your Item form, including "Grading Company," "Grade" and "Serial Number" provided with that grading.
• The listing must include an image of the item, showing the coin in its graded holder, front and back.

If the coin listed is not certified by one of the above authorized grading companies, the coin is considered raw/uncertified and is subject to additional requirements for their sale.

I hope that answers your question.

Ribbit

 

You actually missed the reg having to do with SGS. The next section continues;

"Raw and Uncertified Coins

A raw or uncertified coin is defined as any coin not graded by one of the authorized grading companies. Sellers are permitted to list these items on eBay under the following conditions:

* A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the description of the listing.
* The grading company or price guide is not referenced in the title or description.
* A dollar value (even if personal opinion) is not included in the title or description."

 

I got busy at werk and had to post and run. Didn't have anymore time to finish posting the rest of the rules but you did a great job of filling in what I left off.

Ribbit

 

Consider me educated. Thanks - I'll report as many of the improper listings as I can to ebay.

 

What's interesting about that is how Aboncom violates that portion of the rule:

http://coins.shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=perfect+proof&_sacat=11116

Notice the ones with pics of SGS coins in them? When you click on them, don't be surprised when the seller is Aboncom. :whistle:

When a coin is listed as a Perfect Proof, that's the same as saying it's PR-70, which, when it comes to SGS slabbed coins, is against the rules but Ebay won't do anything about it since it's one of their favorite Power Sellers and that's in full violation of Anti-Trust laws of the United States, since they won't let the little guys do it. :hammer:

Plus, all I did was type in "Perfect Proof" in the search string and I'd guess around 1/2 of the over 600 listings are probably in violation. Why can't Ebay find these violations? Why? They don't care! :goof:

Ribbit

 

http://stores.ebay.com/Abon-Enterprises

aboncom does not use "SGS' or numerical grading numbers in the titles of their listings and is therefore not in violation of ebay's listing policies. They, or anybody for that matter, can use any wording, letters, numbers or hidden code they want in their descriptions, as long as it is not obscene. However, if any part of a description is false or deliberately misleading, and you can prove it, provide the proof in a report to ebay.

 

toad, "A numeric grade" is not permitted. "perfect" is not numeric.

 

Perfect Proof = PR-70 = Violation

The word Proof can be used but once you add Perfect to it, that makes it a violation. They cannot say PR-70 in the Title so they cannot say Perfect Proof either! The two are the same, just as you can say XF in the title but you can't say XF-40, unless it's a authorized TPG.

Ribbit

Ps: Perfect Proof does not mean anything but PR-70 and cannot be thought to mean just any proof.

 

Toad,

As logical as you want to be, you are arguing with eBay. Need I say any more.

 

It's like in another thread, where the seller lists the coin as Gem BU. Gem BU is generic and although it implies the coin is MS-60 or above, it does not pinpoint it to any specific grade so that is not a listing violation, even though the coin doesn't qualify as Uncirculated. Perfect Proof is a pinpointed grade and does not mean PR-60 and above nor PR-65 and above nor PR-69 and above, it means one thing . . . PR-70 so it qualifies as a specific grade and it is in the title and it is not an approved TPG, so it is a listing violation.

Ribbit

Ps; Here's the rule:

A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc.

Perfect Proof only means one thing, PR-70, and with it in the title it qualifies as a listing violation. If you can somehow figure out a way that Perfect Proof means anything but PR-70, then you have an argument but since it doesn't mean anything but that, it's the same as saying PR-70 and that qualifies it as a listing violation.

Here's a test for you, if you are willing to try it. Find a pic of a MS-70 or PR-70 SGS coin and list in on ebay with an outrageous BIN amount. Then have members of the CFE report it as a violation for having the grade in the Title (Perfect Uncirculated or Perfect Proof) and see how long your listing remains before Ebay yanks it. That will tell you whether it is a violation or not and when it is pulled, you will then understand that Ebay plays favorites!

 

Let's not go off the deep end here. I can understand your concerns and frustrations, but ebay's policies are written and not very flexible. However, expecting ebay to interpret what you consider to be code words in their listings goes a bit far.

I just spent 50 minutes in "Live Chat" with Kristyn A. from ebay. She seemed to be a bit out of her league with the concept of coin listings but she did as well as she could under what I imagine was the instructions she had been given.

Here's the deal:

1. you see a listing you don't like
2. go to the bottom of the listing page and click on "Report this item"
3. this brings up a "File a Report" page.
4. the category will show as "Report Category" - Listing Violations
5. under that is "Reason for Report" - Select one
6. select either "Counterfeits and copyright violations" or "Listing policy violations"
7. next is "Detailed Reason" - select one
8. pick one of the reasons given
9. this brings up "Additional Information" - select one
10. select one of the options
11. this brings up a "Continue>" button
12. next up is a screen to enter a brief description - "Brief" being the operative word - there is room for 100 characters, so you have to be brief and concise, while being thorough. Opinions don't count; facts do.

There are other links (which have been given on this forum) which can be used to report violations, but the method outlined above is the fastest way to do it.