Cabinet Friction,stacking Or Wear

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by rzage, Sep 2, 2008.

Page 3 of 16
  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Kind of, PCGS also says in their grading guide -

    " Often the best way to understand something is to understand what it is not. When coins are truly worn, (those coins grading AU55 and lower), it is not difficult to 'see' the wear. ........"

    " True wear mainly comes from from circulation and usually there is some discoloration. When the wear is from one of the other 'problems' there may not be discoloration. Plastic in album slides and flips will not cause the same discoloration as contact with cloth or human hands, or other ways in which a coin becomes circulated. Since wear from circulation usually causes discoloration, comparing the affected area with pristine areas by tilting the coin under a good light source will determine whether the luster is really broken by actual wear. When a coin is worn enough to grade AU55 or lower, dullness is observed by a casual glance at the coin."

    And this next part kind of says it all -

    " If you need magnification to see the 'wear', it is either not wear or it is wear that is so slight as to not prevent the coin from grading Uncirculated."

    So there you have it, a flat out statement that a coin can have wear and they will still grade it as MS.

    Compare that to a previous quote from their guide -

    " Circulated coins - these are coins that have undergone wear, however slight, as a result of use in circulation or mishandling."

    Now if that is not a direct contradiction then I don't know what would be. What they are saying is that if they want to grade a coin as MS, they will - whether it has wear or not.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 4, 2008
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  3. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    So I guess it comes down to what Leadfoot stated the value of a coin is not determined by the way it was graded or by whose standard but by the coin itself and its condition .
    rzage
     
    rzage, Sep 4, 2008
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    And that is what is meant by - buy the coin not the slab. But few really understand how that statement came to be - or why.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 4, 2008
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  5. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Words, schmords! :loud: Just look at the coins and the grades assigned by the TPG, and I think you'll agree that "on nearly every series, the TPGs grade the AU/MS line not by luster/wear on high points, but luster/wear on the fields." Look at what they do, not what they say -- actions speak louder than words...Mike

    p.s. I agree, their words are contradictory, but their grading (while far from perfect) is much more consistent, relatively speaking.
     
    Leadfoot, Sep 4, 2008
    #44 + Quote Reply
  6. vipergts2

    vipergts2 Jester in hobby of kings

    The term "uncirculated" is a bit of a tricky/missused word in my eyes. A coin can technicaly be circulated by going through a couple of retail transactions and show absolutely no sign of wear thus grading ms60+ and a coin plucked straight from a new roll can be slightly misshandled by whatever reason and show wear thus AU graded. Now which coin is "uncirculated"?

    All this is a great reason to learn about grading and to participate on this forum. I jus wish coins would look like they do in hand in photographs. it would make learning much easier. Even photograde stops at AU coins, I would imagine for that reason.
     
    vipergts2, Sep 4, 2008
    #45 + Quote Reply
  7. stainless

    stainless ANTONINIVS

    IMO

    AU is AU and MS is MS. If a coin gets wear from cabinet friction (which I would then ask that person why they didn't have it more protected), it is the same wear as circulation wear as far as I am concerned.

    Besides....how are you gonna sell a coin that has wear from "cabinet friction" as MS? Do you think the buyer knows, or even cares how that wear got there?


    stainless
     
    stainless, Sep 4, 2008
    #46 + Quote Reply
  8. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Quoted for truth.
     
    Leadfoot, Sep 4, 2008
    #47 + Quote Reply
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I would agree with that Mike to a point, but I wouldn't say nearly every series. Your comment is particularly true about the older series (up to the 1850's or so) though. After that things change.

    And words are important Mike, that book after all is what PCGS says that they base their grading on. They are supposed to follow those written words when grading your coins. And to a large degree they do. And that is exactly why I think they wrote the book and worded it the way that they did - so that they could grade AU coins as MS and thus fool the vast majority of the numismatic public.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 4, 2008
    #48 + Quote Reply
  10. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    LeHigh , so what did your Walker grade ? Probably high MS And is there any wear you can see ?
    rzage
     
    rzage, Sep 4, 2008
    #49 + Quote Reply
  11. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Fair enough. Although I might argue this is true for later series (I'd say until about the 1940's as I think Peace dollars, Walkers and Mercs are also graded this way), I will not argue that many moderns (say 1950's and beyond) are graded quite differently.
     
    Leadfoot, Sep 4, 2008
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  12. USS656

    USS656 Here to Learn Supporter

    This has been a very insightful thread and I'm not done yet! :bow:
     
    USS656, Sep 4, 2008
    #51 + Quote Reply
  13. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast


    The coin is not mine. I just posted the photo to make the point that a coin with trace wear can bear the same qualities as a high end mint state coin and that the TPG's can and do Market Grade some of these coins to MS grades. Any way, here is the coin in the holder.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Lehigh96, Sep 4, 2008
    #52 + Quote Reply
  14. vipergts2

    vipergts2 Jester in hobby of kings

    That's my kind of coin, very good eye appeal without the ms 66/67 price tag. Although I bet it would sell for more than a ms 60-62.
     
    vipergts2, Sep 5, 2008
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  15. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Good guess, it sold for $11K which is MS63 money for this key date coin.
     
    Lehigh96, Sep 5, 2008
    #54 + Quote Reply
  16. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    If all AU-58s looked like this , I'd never buy a MS coin again , real nice key date .
    rzage:)
     
    rzage, Sep 5, 2008
    #55 + Quote Reply
  17. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    I agree with that.
     
    mark_h, Sep 5, 2008
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  18. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Lehigh , how come this coin isn't toned like all your others . Forget it just read this isn't your coin , sorry .
    rzage:cool::whistle:
     
    rzage, Sep 6, 2008
    #57 + Quote Reply
  19. Arizona Jack

    Arizona Jack The Lincoln-ator

    As stated in another post above, circulation wear hits the fields and luster first. A coin in a tube that is uncirculated will have no such loss of luster or wear in the fields. The roll friction will affect the MS grade point only in all but severe cases.

    On another note, I have submitted obviously AU coins with circulation wear to PCGS and have them come back as MS-63.

    Again, go figure
     
    Arizona Jack, Sep 7, 2008
    #58 + Quote Reply
  20. nugget_hill

    nugget_hill Senior Member

    That comes back to 10 graders 10 different grades Jack
     
    nugget_hill, Sep 7, 2008
    #59 + Quote Reply
  21. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    I agree with you 1000%. And, with Conder, who basically said the same thing. However, both of you, IMO, miss the point. Market grading is what the market will pay. And you put pedigree on a slab, and the market will pay a premium for that. But, assume the coin, itself, grades only AU. What kind of premium is that? A coin like that, with pedigree, has to grade MS, not AU. Why? Again, because that's the kind of money the market is willing to shell out for a coin like that.

    So, final step...the coup de grace*...what if the coin has wear? Well, not a problem, now, because we just call that "cabinet friction." Are you beginning to get the idea?

    Let's take this nonsense even further. Buy the coin, not the slab..look at the coin, not the slab...that's the familiar bromide, right? How many times have you heard it? Well, not anymore, it's not. When pedigree now influences a coin's grade to where it can now all but obliterate wear as a grading factor, you're looking at the pedigree on the slab, and overlooking the wear on the coin. You're not caring about the wear on the coin anymore because (courtesy of the market graders) you now have the euphemism for it when there's pedigree on the slab...cabinet friction. And, everything, now, is right in the world, again (or, so we believe ;))...

    *edit - spelled that sucker wrong :eek:
     
    eddiespin, Sep 7, 2008
    #60 + Quote Reply
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