Deceitful Ebay Sellers (what to look out for)

Howdy fellow coin peeps, :thumb:

I run all over Ebay and see a lot of things, from awesome authentic coins to cheap cast counterfeits, from honest sellers to unscrupulous sellers. Here's one deceitful seller I've run across and I think it's a perfect example to use to help our members to learn what to look out for when buying on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330258009887&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=014

What you will see is a 1804 Draped Bust Half-Cent with a gorgeous rim cud, but the seller NEVER claims what variety it is. What the seller does is provide a link to CoinFacts 1804 DBHC varieties and when you click on that link, then click on the link for the C-2 variety (Very Rare), you will see a rim cud identical to the one being sold. However, the one being sold isn't a C-2, it's a LDS C-9, which is Common but you have to carefully examine the coin being sold against the C-2 in order to know it isn't a C-2, then you have to go through all the other varieties to figure out which one it is. The Late Die State C-9 is worth more than an Early Die State C-9, but not worth any where near what a C-2 is worth.

The seller has been informed of what variety his coin is but they have elected NOT to add the information to the listing (Q&A or amended blurb) and with the way this seller has listed this coin and the fact he has been properly informed as to what variety it is and has elected not to provide this information on the listing, PROVES this seller is deceitful and as a buyer, you should be leery of deceitful sellers and how they operate. (note - this paragraph may be wrong. I may not have messaged the seller but I meant to. The deceitful nature of the listing is still vailid, but the seller's honesty is not at this time.) (2nd note - have contacted seller and he doesn't think it's either a C-2 or C-9 but thinks it must be even rarer? Ignorance?)

Ribbit

Ps: Please feel free to add additional Ebay items to this thread (deceitful sellers). The more we can learn about what to look out for, the better our Ebay experiences will be and if you think Ebay is on your side as a buyer, you have a lot to learn. :goof: Ebay is a wonderful place to get a wide variety of stuffs but if you don't learn to watch out for, the odds are you will be the victim of fraud and even if you think you are knowledgeable enough to never get had, think again! Odds are, if you buy on Ebay, you will be the victim of fraud but that's life. If you stay inside all the time, so as to limit your exposure to the bad in the world, you never get to bask in the sun or smell the roses. I prefer to bask in the sun and smell the roses, but to know as much as possible to limit harm, all the while knowing full well that's it's waiting for me around every corner.

 

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A word of caution is in order here: DON'T NAME NAMES! If you do you could end up fighting an expensive and probably unwinnable lawsuuit. Let Ebay take them on. They have the financial resources for court battles; I certainly don't and I'm guessing you don't either. Naming names and all is very satisfying, but getting hit with a lawsuit, hiring a defense attorney and letting it go on for years? I'd rather get stuck fo a few bucks, pass the name informally, i.e. to my friends, and never do business with them again. They won't last and remember: always use Paypal.
VV

 

On the naming names, there is one seller I've recently had an item on watch (auction has ended and I've deleted link) and they actually named someone's name who had refused insurance then made a claim the item never arrived. I thought that was interesting and possibly liable for the seller and I would never go to that extreme but to "refer" to someone, without specifically naming names, like I have done with the link on here, is within the law and I've also kept copies of my correspondence with the seller so if either the seller or Ebay wishes to go after me, I will eat their lunch. :eating:

As to PayPal, don't ever think that protects you! I am still fighting with them over a refund and it is still an ongoing battle. I may end up suing PayPal and Ebay over it, in order to get my money back and if it comes to that, I will do it no matter how much it costs and they will lose and in losing, I will make an example of them.

Ribbit

 

Since I am in no way knowledgeable about half-cents I'm unable to make an informed judgement on this coin's authenticity. However, your posting brings up a few questions.

What is there in the listing that you consider to be deceitful? It is listed only as a "rare variety".

What is it about the coin that makes you sure it's a C-9 rather than a C-2? It's easy to say what (you think) is isn't; you conveniently leave out your credentials to judge what it really is.

If your judgement is based on the placement and size of the cud, isn't it possible that dies other than the C-2 might have a similar cud? Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean it doesn't exist, on a C-9, for instance.

Is your complaint that the coin has been mis-listed? Or that a C- number hasn't been applied to it? Or that it's counterfeit?

You haven't posted exactly what you said to the seller, but if your tone to him was accusative, then you probably got the response you deserved.

Your ire about the seller not responding to you is misplaced; you should have reported your concerns, with citations and your credentials, to ebay for their action. As I post this, there are 7 hours left in the auction so it's probably too late to take that route, however you might do that anyway in the event that the buyer pays through PayPal. Ebay/PayPal might be able to head off the payment.

I am not a buyer or seller of half cents. I don't know you or the seller of this coin. I simply think you've gone about this in the wrong way.

 

Since you took the time to ask the questions, I will take the time to answer but the only reason I didn't provide all of this information in the beginning, was in the interest of keeping it short and the the POINT.

Exactly! The first thing I must do is to provide the definition of DECEITFUL:

2.intended to deceive; misleading; fraudulent: a deceitful action.

The key word is MISLEADING. The listing describes the coin as being VERY RARE and when you click on the link to CoinFacts, which variety is listed as being VERY RARE? The only one - C-2 - and when you click on that link, what do you see? A coin with the identical rim cud as the one being sold. As I said in my original post, the seller never once claims what variety it is but uses INFERENCES that gets buyers to think it's a C-2. That is deceitful in nature!

I sent the link to several friends who also confirmed what I knew, it isn't a C-2 so I collaborated my suspisions and the friends I sent it to, know more about EAC's than I will probably ever know.

When looking at the pictures available on CoinFacts, there is only one with a rim cud on it like the coin being sold and it's the C-2. Again, that is deceitful in nature! Now, if you will look at the C-9 on CoinFacts, it doesn't have a rim cud and no reference to one. As to it being possible that a C-9 has a rim cud similar to the one being sold, I thought I was very clear on that FACT? I said the one being sold is a LDS C-9 (Late Die State C-9), so that means the one being sold IS a C-9 and NOT a C-2 but the seller never defines the variety. Again, deceitful in nature!

None of the above and I'm not complaining but rather, informing others of how a listing can fall within the grey area of being legit but misleading at the same time. It's called The power of Suggestion! The seller claims the coin is VERY RARE and provides a link for us to confirm his claims and in that link, we see one that is VERY RARE and click on it, to see what appears to be the coin being sold and the potential buyer's pulse quickens, thinking about getting it at a "steal" and the buyer doesn't notice stuff doesn't match up, especially those who don't know what to look for, which is the majority of peeps on Ebay. Everyone here should know that feeling you get when you run across a RARE coin on Ebay? And in that moment, the potential buyers brain isn't working correctly and they don't catch it isn't that coin and they get SUCKERED in!

I am usually informative with my messages to sellers or I will ask them questions, where I know the answer will prove the coin in question is what I think/know it to be. Here is an example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150278235081&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

I messaged the seller and asked if it was a Plain or Lettered Edge variety?

In their reply, they said it was a Plain Edge variety (duh - counterfeit). So I replied with this message:

Then it is a counterfeit:

http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dollars/1804_dollars/1804_Draped_Bust_Silver_Dollar.htm

George

With that reply, I stated it was a counterfeit but I also provided proof but the seller had to go look to find the truth out for themselves, which, if you go and look, you will see there was a Plain Edge variety (#9 on list) and it was a overstamped 1857 Swiss (Bern) Shooting Thaler and upon clicking on that link, they would see their coin was not that coin! This seller is a good seller because she pulled the auction as soon as she figured out it was a counterfeit! :thumb:

What is there to report? The auction is legit and does not violate Ebay Policies but it is deceptive and that was the point of this post.

What I will usually do is inform the buyer of what they just bought. Here's a recent example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380050663093&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

Hey Bob, ​

Are you Hobo? I noticed you have written a guide on Counterfeits so I would have to assume you knew the Massachusetts Cent you just bought was a counterfeit and a friend of mine collects counterfeits and I told him about the cent, so I was wondering if you are he? ​

George ​

Here was my earlier message to the seller:​

You wanted more proof it isn't authentic:

http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/massachusetts_coppers/ma_copper_coins.htm

Here's why yours is a counterfeit:

Lettering looks handwritten instead of typeface.
Mound where Indian stands is rounded, should be squarish in shape.
The Indian's attire/dress is all wrong.
The two feathers are wrong.
The bow is wrong.
The Star in front of the Indian is not in the correct place.
The branch & arrows in the Eagle's claws are all wrong.
The 7 in the date is not angled correctly.

You need to inform the gentleman this came from that it is a crude counterfeit and must be sold as such.

George

I'm not sure if the seller would have given a refund up front or not, without my interference, but long story short, the seller gave the buyer a full refund and the buyer is happy, and the seller would still like to sell the coin but as a counterfeit, not the real deal.

See the above and see if your thinking is different now? :whistle:

Ribbit

Ps: In going through my messages I can't find the one to the seller of the OP coin so it is possible I never messaged the seller but the deceitfulness of the listing is still valid. I'm still looking for the correspondence but it may be I only discussed it with friends and never got around to messaging the seller. I message so many sellers about "problems" that it is very possible for me to have forgotten to message this one? :goofer:

Pps: Is it possible the seller thinks it's a C-2? Yes but also No! If the buyer thinks it's a C-2 then why didn't they claim that? They never made that claim and claiming something is VERY RARE isn't deceitful in-of-itself, but the way in which this seller organized everything, gives every appearance of being intentionally deceitful but the seller doesn't have to have a clue as to the real identity of their coin for deceit not to be a factor, ignorance is the best source of deceit so unintentional deceit is possible and rampant on Ebay.

 

Actually he doesn't list it as a rare variety but as a very rare die state. Well it is a common variety in a scarcer but not a very rare die state.

Toad is correct about the variety, it is a C-9 not a C-2. There are several small differences but not one big difference I can point to that would be immediately obvious to a non-variety collector. And as to my qualifications, I've been an EACer since 1982 and a collector of copper by variety since 1985 so I've got 22 years experience attributing half cents and large cents.

If you will note Toad says that the late state C-9 does have a similar cud to that found on the late state C-2. The cuds are not quite the same though since the start and end at different locations.

I feel they are exaggerating somewhat on the rarity of the die state, but since they are not actually claiming that this is a C-2 I won't get too outraged over it.

Toad, you are of course correct about the 1804 being a fake, but it is the die work that condemns it not the fact that it has a plain edge. As you mention their is one known plain edge 1804 dollar and at the moment it is th only one known. But I do believe that there is a small possibility that a second plain edge specimen exists. When they first started making the restrikes in 1858-59 all of them were plain edged. When complaints began to circulate about mint employees creating restrikes of rarities th plain edged 1804's were mentioned specifically and the mint took steps to buy them back. But contemporary reports claimed that at least one specimen left the country before the mint began buying them back. This rumored coin has not been seen since. If it does exist it may just show up again some day. So don't condemn an 1804 dollar just because it has a plain edge.

 

That's why there's nothing to report to Ebay. The seller never did anything that violates Ebay Policies but when it sells for way more than it's worth, because some uninformed buyer bought it thinking it's a C-2, that's what enrages me.

Ribbit

Ps: You said:

Actually he doesn't list it as a rare variety but as a very rare die state.

Look again at the title of the listing? :kewl:

Pps: You also said something else about how similar a C-2 & C-9 are, so in your opinion, what's the chances of someone buying it that thinks it's a C-2, who isn't as experienced as you on what to look for (I know you are qualified), knowing the average person on Ebay?

 

Look at the full title Yes it says Cohen rarity, but it doesn't say the variety. Then if you continue with the title is says Very Rare die state show a heavy cud over RTY. So the very rare refers to the die state not the variety. "Cohen rarity" could refer to either the variety or a die state.

Well it hasn't sold yet, but the bids so far do not make it appear that anyone is mistaking it for a C-2. Maybe the high bidder IS thinking it is a C-2, but so far he isn't really overpaying for a late state C-9.

 

Title:

1804 Draped Bust Half Cent, COHEN Rarity: Very Rare

The portion - "COHEN Rarity: Very Rare" - with the use of the colon, infers the variety is very rare since, to the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a Cohen Rarity Scale, but rather, a Sheldon Rarity Scale. So, with that title, it is being "infered" the Cohen Variety is Very Rare, but I could be wrong. Is there a Cohen Rarity Scale?

Ribbit

Ps: With the latest contact with the seller, it appears they are ignorant of varieties but that isn't uncommon because I wasn't sure what variety it was and had to ask someone more knowledgeable than myself. The problem is still there though, the misleading way it was listed, which doesn't have to be intentional and now I'm leaning towards it being not intentional but is very common, especially on Ebay. I can't tell you how many times I've seen undeniable pocket change being listed as Rare :goof: but with the way this one was listed, it is more deceiving even though it is probably unintentional but even with it being not intentional, someone is bound to get hurt!

Pps: Here is a LDS C-9 on Heritage:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1114&Lot_No=7060

 

I agree with Toad for the most part. However, when looking at coins on ebay, a seller stating that his coin is "rare" means little to nothing to me. I've seen a plethora of sellers say things like "very rare 1945 Lincoln". I mean, come on!! I've also seen Lincolns in AG condition that look like they've been run over by a freight train listed as, "very nice XF condition". Sellers with these descriptions just chap my hide.], and I won't bother looking at any of their coins.

 

When I sell something on Ebay I try to remove all possible deceit. If the picture is misleading in any way, I will fully explain the picture is misleading, like if a doubling effect occurs and it's the flash that caused it, I will say the doubling is an illusion and the coin does not show any signs of doubling in-hand, etc....

Deceit does not have to be intentional and most deceit on Ebay isn't intentional and is no different than me thinking a coin I own is a AU-55 when in fact, it's more like EF-30 - personal interpretation. And one of the keys in selling is to "talk it up" but some peeps go beyond that.

I really think this seller thinks it's more than it is and didn't intentionally mean to deceive anyone but only the seller knows the answer to that one. The fact that the listing is deceitful is without a doubt and no matter what form of deception is invloved here, peeps need to learn what to watch out for . . . which is pretty much everything.

When buying anything on Ebay, tis better to be a Doubting Thomas than a Sorry Sue!

Ribbit

 

OT - I just noticed something, on Heritage, they have at least 8 1804 C-9's listed as Plain 4, No Stems. A 1804 C-9 is a Crosslet 4, With Stems.

Where's the Troll when you need him? :goof:

Ribbit

Ps: I also noticed the C-2 has the same problem on Heritage. Someone at Heritage needs new glasses! :kewl:

 

Final Chapter:

Seller got just under $100 for it so whoever got it, in my opinion, got a good deal. I'm actually surprised no one "went" for it but several coins I had on watch tonight, went low and I don't know why? I shouldn't have taken a nap! :headbang:

Ribbit

 

eBay coin vs C-2. Different 4, different bust, different cud

I doubt that anyone considering buying this coin would have been fooled by the description. As in slabs - "Buy the coin, not the slab/description"

 

The seller was fooled.

Ribbit

 

Is not a link leading off eBay's site against its rules?

 

I don't condone listings like this, but I've seen MUCH worse.

 

I think it may have been more like wanting it to be something it wasn't. Sorta like having a no date Type-2 Buffalo with a S mint mark and you can barely make out a 3 at the end of the date, so it has to be a 1913 . . . right? Or how about another one I ran across recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360076832431&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

The seller pulled it once she had enough info confirming what it really was but why don't ya'll see if you can figure it out?

Ribbit

Ps: Once you've figured out what that one is, here's another one for you to take on, if'n you's feel up to tha task? :kewl:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230276842139&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013

Ribbit-Ribbit-Ribbit

 

That's what this place is all about. Post it here first, to find out what you've got, then sell it properly on Ebay.

Ribbit

 

Hi Everyone,

When I took a Lincoln to a very prominent coin dealer and asked him 'is this coin real?', he said it didn't matter because all you have to do is say it is 'rare' and someone will buy it.
After that he informed me my coin is real.

I figure if someone must say a coin is 'Rare' in order to sell it, then watch out!
The more hype they must give the more likely it isn't what they say or think it is.

Guess I am getting jaded by all the dishonesty that abounds these days.
Fortunately I have good honest sellers on whom I can rely to sell me
honest coins.
Thank you one and all.
jeankay

p.s. The 'honest dealers' I know do not include the US Mint.