Where do dealers get their coins??

Dear Coingal;

I must say that your comments are basically accurate. I must take exception to the use of the term "vest pocket" dealers since Vest Pocket Coins and Paul's Vest Pocket Coins are registered trademarks of mine and have been since 1977. See my comments in another reply in this thread.

I am no longer a brick and mortar dealer having given up that after the 3rd robbery. I seriously doubt that most store front dealers hate me since I am a valuable source of coins for them as well as somebody who will buy their surplus stock and take it to shows to dispose of. Yes, I attend shows. Up until recently I did about 40 shows a year all over the southern United States. With the cost of gasoline, and turning 71, I have cut back to about 20-25. Actually, with the cost of tables, travel and gasoline, my overhear is generally higher than most store front dealers. My excuse? I enjoy it although I probably could make a case for terminal stupidity.

Yes, I have had my fill of those so called dealers with grey sheets that want to buy from me at way below bid and want full ask or better for their overgraded coins. I simply say no thanks (politely but firmly). My target goal is between 5% and 10% profit per year after expensess and I work damn hard for that. If I sell $100,000 worth of coins per year my annual profit is usually about $7,500 or a little over $500 a month. That's less than the minimum wage and that is also why I am a part time, not a full time dealer (although I seem to work more hours than a full time dealer!!!)..

Have you noticed the number of people that confuse markups with profit?

Numismatically

Paul Garner
The Old Sarge
aka Vest Pocket Coins (est 1977)

 

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The trademark was registered with the Federal Government and the State of Texas in early 1977 and has been in constant use since then. I was bet $5 that I couldn't get it registered aand $200 later it was registered. Dumbest bet I ever made!!!

I attempt to defend my trademark since it is my business name. I suspose that when I die it can revert to general or common usage.

Paul Garner
The Old Sarge
aka Vest Pocket Coins

 

A couple remarks relating to these comments on dealers and proft, etc.

I always get a kick out of the threads of people who can't "survive" on e-bay because of the high fees. Some of the complaints are justified - to be sure. And I don't want to start up a discussion on that.

The point is that it COSTS MONEY to sell stuff. Even if E-bay and Paypal take 20% of your sales - compare that to a "real" business. I have no way of knowing if "old Sarge's" comments are correct, but he would probably be thrilled to have a 20% overhead!!!

And then coin dealers have to deal in all aspects of the hobby - even if it doesn't interest them - they need to become "experts". Is that a variety of the Kentucky quarter? "Yes Maam, I'll get a pliers out and pull that gold filling for you", "No I don't buy Chucky Cheese tokents", "I'm sure your grandfather thought drilling holes and putting strings through them would keep them better organized"....

So on and so forth.

Oh and the comment about armed guards not touching the money. Apparently, it is the same way with the people who go around and empty out parking meters. They never see a coin.

 

i'd say estate sales, you can get a lot of nice coins for sum big bucks

 

Dear Sarge,

In my reference of the ... uh.. briefcase dealer this is the person who goes wheeling a small case around the coin show for a $25 entry fee rather than the $200-$300 table fees the dealer has paid. They carry one small case, not a carload of back breaking boxes. AND, I've even seen some solicit business in the parking lot at the show. Yet, they still want to buy under bid, sell over ask, etc. This is the type of 'dealer' I was referring to earlier as being hated by most brick and mortar dealers. My apology for the misinterpretation in symantics.

I've known several dealers for a very long time and even helped a few and doing shows is hard work. Hauling the coins, worrying about being robbed, setting up, spending 2-3 days in the show, going back to the hotel exhausted after a 10 hour day in the show, trying to eat lunch in between collectors coming up to the tables, then breaking down and driving home wondering who's following them just to get back in the shop and unload everything and face the next day in the store all week only to repeat it all again the following weekend. It's exhausting.

Also, because you were an actual brick and mortar dealer you are still accepted over 'briefcase dealers' because they know you know what a real shop owner has to contend with ala facing every single day wondering if 'if today is the day I get robbed' and if you think back I'm sure you'll recall many more long hours in the shop. Additionally, you still set up at shows and pay bourse fees so you still contribute to the success of the shows financially (and the club sponsoring it) and disburse numismatic wisdom at the table. You aren't just breezing in and out of the show and reaping the larger 'profit margin'.

Respectfully,

CoinGal

 

try to defend your trademark??? from common speech? We're having a conversation here. we can use any terms we want, registered or not. If I want to say Levi's, I don't have to say blue jeans, I can say Levi's.

just a quick marketing note: Common people using your registered trademark in conversation is generally beneficial in the fact that it spreads awareness of the term. You can try all you like to stifle my speech, but I am free to say "vest pocket dealer" in any way I choose, I just can't use it in advertising or slander it without repercussions.

 

I guess I need to put in my two cents (an 1866, of course) in defense of my good friend, Paul, of Vest Pocket Coins ...........

I have known Paul and his family for a lot more years than I care to admit to. His daughter and "my girl" had played together when they were little and we have had some great "numismatic times" doing our "vest pocket" deals at shows. We have set up at many large and small coin shows in several states over the years. If there were an award for his beautiful "coin display" he'd surely get First Place. His table is not one but up to six tables, each at a weekend cost of a many brick and mortar dealers "shops".

Paul has some of the best coins one can find at any show - best in "looks". He spends a great deal of time cataloguing and putting each of his thousands of coins in special display packages and much of his prices are more reasonable that others. Ya'all need to find out when he will be at the next show and go to meet him - I know you will be impressed not only with his display and range of coin stock but with his better than average knowledge of numismatics.

If I could post pictures (and someday I may learn how) I'd post a picture of me and my tables, five display cases, special lighting, RESALE TAX CERTIFICATE, computer Internet hook up and my usual $250,000 in gold and silver coins. However, I have to admit that I am still one of those "briefcase dealers" that have walked through coin shows ON A BUYING SPREE to supply myself with coins for the next show - that's hard work also to spend all weekend visiting coin dealer friends (and new dealers) making deals "with the graysheet in hand" so I could supply my customers with reasonably priced coins at the next show I set up at.

My objection to the average briefcase dealer is that they ARE NOT DEALERS at all, but collectors looking for the same deals that we dealers give to one another. Most want low below bid prices when they buy and inflated high, near retail prices, for their coins when they offer them for sale. I usually and politely refuse their offerings and never deal with any of them.

Another note - at my peak I looked at 200 collections a year (several a week), purchasing most of them and have handled rarities such a two 1804 Flowing Hair Dollars, a couple of 1913 Liberty Nickels (the last of which Dwight Manley bought at auction a few years back) and a few other pedigree coins as many hundreds of others over my 45 years in the "business" which most were in the five to six figure range.

Today I am more "retired" and have liquidated most of my huge "coin show" stock but still have a few deep pocket clients that I supply and odd coin to from now and then - and, I do my "briefcase" dealings at shows with many dealer friends that have brick and mortar shops to supply those coins to my clients.

Nuff said ......... let the games begin!

 

yeah, I was just saying the other day I need to register as a dealer so I can get dealer prices when I buy...I can make up some business cards and what not. I wont even BE a VEST POCKET dealer...I wont deal coins...I just want a good price.

 

Usually it seems the type of coin is what draws a person into collecting. I collected over thirty years before I started dealing on a small basis. The reason I started dealing is that I had collected most of what I wanted to collect and had thousands of doubles. So that meant I had thousands of dollars worth of coins sitting around in the type and series I was most knowledgeable in. So I started doing shows, thinking for sure I would embarass myself by lack of inventory and knowldge. I soon found out that I had nothing to be embarrassed about and I had enough knowledge.
The whole thing just worked out from there. I'm not able to do shows anymore and I miss them. But I made some good friends, made some money and picked myslef up some real nice coins over the years that I kept for myself. How can you beat that?
Vegas Vic

 

I want one of those briefcases! where do you get them?

 

There is one thing I never understood about some dealers. Within four miles of my house there are four dealers.

#1 is in the basement of a small two story office building on a four lane state highway, with the entry in the back.

#2 is on the second floor of a two story building also on a state highway with no public parking and on a divided highway with access only from one direction

# 3 and #4 share a shop on the second floor of a strip mall with access only through the center of the mall, up a flight of stairs and then a 200 foot walk on an outside balcony.

My wonderment is that these four dealers can not boast of anything approaching walk-in business. Also each is open only three or four days per week and close at 3:00. I have to assume that they deal mostly in shows (there is just one monthly show in the area) or mail order, although I've never seen an ad anywhere for their stores. What's the point in having a physical store and paying rent for a public that doesn't have realistic access (if you work 9 to 5, M-F, you will NEVER find their stores open to you).

In the downtown area 8 miles away, there are also four stores. One is on the fifth floor of a major office building. The other three are on the first floor level with sidewalk access. Two of these advertise heavily and apparently do a lot of mail order business in addition to walk-ins.

My rambling point here is questioning whether there are dealers who actually do prefer to work shows rather than daily access to the public? And why would that be? Are there advantages to shows only? Are there advantages to mail order only? Are there advantages or disadvantages to walk-in customers? Or a mixture of two or all three of these methods?

 

You are lucky. The closest daler to me, you have to call and tell him to go to the shop and hope he's not busy. He is never open for walkins.

 

I get some of my best coins from vest-pocket dealers. Lower margins due to lower expenses, and if you pick ones with a good eye, you can do very well. Respectfully...Mike

 

I'll have to take your word for that but it doesn't answer the question of final sale and delivery to a customer. Obviously dealers can't exist simply selling and buying to each other; at some point each coin has to be sold to someone in the public. What avenue does that final sale take? Walk-in to a shop? Mail order? Coin show? Private deals out of the public eye?

 

As a dealer I'll weigh in with my two cents...

First, on the topic of where I acquire my inventory, it comes from a variety of sources the two largest of which being advertising and word of mouth. Last night for example, I purchased a collection from an individual who had been referred to me another individual from whom I had bought a decent sized collection several days prior. As we all known, the numismatic community is often one where most higher end collectors know and are often even doing business with each other. Treat your customers fairly when it comes to purchases, and word gets around.

As for sales of coins to dealers, this is a method by which we as dealers can acquire the specific inventory that our customers seek. A few years ago for example, I sold several very rare California fractional gold pieces to another dealer as I knew he had the market for them, which I did not. Yesterday, I needed a 1909-S VDB in MS63 for one of my customers and did not have one in stock so I acquired one from the same dealer. When these sales take place we, as dealers, give up some profit margin but gain the ability to satisfy our customer's needs through the utilization of a vast network of dealers.

In the end, coins are always destined for collectors but I have to agree, they can often move from dealer to dealer quite a bit before they get there!

 

Contacts, shows, referrals,

Contacts, shows, referrals,Contacts, shows, referrals, Contacts, shows, referrals,
Myself and my dealers about thirty get their coins the same way everybody else does, contacts, shows, and referrals - you pay your dues!

The biggest obstacle I see new people trying to over-come is somehow thinking they can jump in this thing and defeat the standard common practice among dealers, buyers and somehow start buying wholesale.
None of us go to the drugstore and say, "well that ibuprofen just cost you $1 so that's all I want to pay". That's absurd but somehow we always have these whippersnappers come in and think just because (in their mind) they have figured it out they can skip the retail prices and go for what dealers pay, wrong and I will tell you why it's wrong.
We pay dues - do you know what my publications, copying, advertisement's cost me a year? About $4000 and that's every year and not including the $3000 worth of books I own.
What about loups, staplers, 2x2's, envelopes, phones computers?
What about time? What about study? What about tying monies up?
But enough of that - here how we get coins.
We establish ourselves in a market. We study and inquire and look and meet enough people that over time we are remembered for a certain niche. Say for instance Lincoln Cents and slowly over time we begin to be known for buying and selling Lincoln cents. We meet hundreds of people and dealers and eventually we get referrals. Since we are know to buy Lincoln memorials, for instance, local dealers and the public start to call us and ask questions or offer us coins that they may have for sale. We start to do business with other and become trusted in the community of persons that buy and sell what we want to buy and sell.
All the dealers that I know already have a place to go with most stuff they buy - in other words if my friend, dealer has a customer come in with what he already knows I always buy from him when he offers he then can buy the material from the customer and immediately have a "place to go" with it before he even buys it. Other material he shops out at local coin club meetings, local shows or the general public.
I'll shut up now but one other observation regarding where any of us gets coins or material to re-sell. We often joke that lord help us if all this stuff every came on the market at once. Every mom and pop, grandchildren, heirs have boxes, jars, cabinets, with this stuff in them at home. Let anyone you meet for the first time know you are a coin collector/dealer the first thing they say is, "of I have some of this or that my dad, or grandmother held onto, what do you think it's worth"? Tell me people am I not telling the truth?
There is no problem getting coins - the problem is and has always been getting good, rare truly nice original stuff that's the problem. The world abounds with mint and proof sets, silver and gold, circulated paper and modern, (so called) commemoratives but it does not abound with choice rare coins, therein lies the real problem for dealers,

 

True story.

 

I get your point but you are missing what I asked.
I'm simply asking how that final sale usually takes place, not the journey it took to get there.