Counterfeit / Altered Coin Of The Day/Week

Here's a 1902 Double Eagle that doesn't look right:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250276386956&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

It may be real but I don't like the look. Opinions will be greatly appreciated. :thumb:

Ribbit

Ps: Love the 3-cent counterfeit!

Pps: Here's a 1904 Double Eagle that also looks wrong:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230275721837&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013

 

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Toad , just the way he took the pictures is suspicious , like he's trying to hide somekind of flaw , the lettering in the back on dollar really looks sloppy .:kewl::kewl:
rzage:smile:hatch::hammer:

 

ok

 

By the way, there's a big difference between ALTERED coins and COUNTERFEIT coins.

 

To an extent- If a coin is altered with intent to pass it off as something it is not than it is a counterfeit in my opinion.

coun·ter·feit
–adjective 1. made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged: counterfeit dollar bills.
2. pretended; unreal: counterfeit grief.
–noun 3. an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery.
4. Archaic. a copy.
5. Archaic. a close likeness; portrait.
6. Obsolete. impostor; pretender.
–verb (used with object) 7. to make a counterfeit of; imitate fraudulently; forge.
8. to resemble.
9. to simulate.
–verb (used without object) 10. to make counterfeits, as of money.
11. to feign; dissemble.

 

Coin of the day 8/1/08

Here is a 1787 Fugio Cent-

This is a cast piece with the apparent surface bubbles or porosity from the casting . There is also the tell tale seam along the edge which is the dead give away although the edge pictured is the oly spot where is shows on this coin. In addition the coins weight is not within tolerance & the sound is not right.
There are numerous varieties of colonial coins that have been produced as counterfeits. Those who are not familier with Colonials should not purchase with out due dilligance.

 

Here's a real Fugio Cent I recently acquired:





The Fugio Cents are very red and not brown and the copies I've seen are usually brownish in color.

Ribbit

Ps: The rim hit on the obverse occurred when I dropped it when I was photographing it. :headbang:

Pps: Here's the other Fugio Cent in my collection:

 

Hey Toad,
How about making those pic's about 1/10 of their current size?? I can't even view this thread with those on there....

Speedy

 

I think the delineation between altered and counterfeit is that an altered coin is a real coin that has been physically changed in some way (metal moved, etc.). A counterfeit coin is one that is created totally on its own. There's a gray area where counterfeits happened to be created from real coins (such as ancients) by using a real coin as a planchet from which to do a new striking. I'm not sure if "officially" altered coins are considered to be counterfeit if they happen to look like a rare variety (i.e. 1914D cent from a 1944D cent). I think they're just considered altered. Also, usually I find they're not very deceptive.

 

You are correct. That is an altered coin. The 1944-D is altered to make it appear it is a 1914-D.

 

You need to fix your settings Speedy. If you have the correct settings, then above the images it would say this:

"This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1850X1796 and weights 457KB."

I use Internet Explorer and don't have the problems you are experiencing?

Ribbit

 

But your not on dial up like Speedy-

 

There is a fine line there,So lets use the 1913 Barber quarter as an example- Since that coin had a mint mark added to it , is that altered or counterfeit ?

I call it couterfeit even though it was an actual coin made by the government it has been altered with the addition of the mint mark.


I do agree with you both on phisically changing a 1944 to a 1914 as altering it but where is the line drawn ?

Is it only considered altered when something is taken away or moved around on the coin ?
Or does adding something to a coin like a mint mark still just make it an altered coin & not a counterfeit in your eyes ?

 

There are several cases I know of where government mints used existing coins and stamped over the original coin, producing a new coin and they are legit but if a private person were to do this and in the process, make the new coin to look like an existing coin, that's counterfeiting. That's no different than the counterfeiters of yesteryear, where they would take a dollar bill, "wash" it, then print $20 bills from the blanks.

Ribbit

Ps: The 1804 Bank Of England Dollar was a stamped over Spanish 8 Reales and I believe in the early days of the United States Mint, they stamped over several different coins but I can't remember what denominations were involved?

 

Dial-up has nothing to do with it. The original image is 457KB but the resized image is much smaller in KB size. So if he's having problems, he's viewing the ORIGINAL IMAGE and NOT the RESIZED IMAGE, therefore, what I said in the beginning still stands true.

Ribbit

 

That's an altered coin in my book. It is a genuine 1913 Quarter that has been altered through the addition of a mintmark. It is still a genuine coin that has been altered.

 

Would you agree that as long as the denomination or series isn't changed, it is altered but if the denomination or series is changed, then it is a counterfeit? Like somehow turning a Lincoln Cent into a Indianhead Cent? Or a Roosevelt Dime into a Mercury Dime? The only way I would know to do this is to re-stamp the coin but in that case, I believe it would qualify as a counterfeit since it is not the original series, even though it is the same denomiation.

Ribbit

 

Fair enough , I see your point -
I have changed the title of the thread to include altered as it does fit more appropriately. For some of the coins I will be sharing.
:smile

 

Toad,

You really enjoy muddying the water don't you?

I don't know exactly where to draw that line. My opinion is when something on a coin has been altered but most of the genuine features remain it is an altered coin. (Example - The reverse of that 1944-D Lincoln that was altered to a 1914-D (the date was altered, not the reverse) is still a genuine Lincoln Wheat reverse.)

Take the 1913 Barber Quarter that had a mintmark added. I call that an altered coin. The mintmark was added but the rest of the coin is genuine. If you removed the added mintmark you would have a genuine coin.

But when a coin is recoined into another series that gets a little stickier. I would say it would depend on whether the recoining was officially authorized or not. If the government ran Mercury dimes through the coin presses to make Roosevelt dimes and Congress had authorized it I would say those are genuine dimes. (NOTE: I think this would be impossible because the Mercury dimes probably would not fall into the collar like a normal planched because they are slightly larger in diameter due to being struck in a collar.)

If a person did the same thing (in reverse) - run Roosevelt dimes through a coin press with Mercury dime dies to create Mercury dimes - I would say those are counterfeit because 1) they were struck without proper authorization and 2) they were created to deceive.

If this could be done the final product would not be very convincing. I am sure the original design would show through just like error coins that have been double-struck.

 

Who?

Lil-ole me?

Neva! :whistle:

Ribbit

Ps: I don't muddy the waters, I turn them yellow.