Here's a new subject--CAC stick-ons

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Actually I think Rick Snow has been doing this for years - the photo seal on IHC's. I still would not buy a coin sight unseen. And no GD I personally do not think all MS65 coins are the same - not sure anyone here thinks that, but I see your point.

I also have one coin with a cac label on it - I bought the coin cause I like it. I do not think I paid a premium - the last coin on Heritage(same date and grade) went for at least $30 more(include S&H). And my coin is nicer(my opinion only).

 

Not the complete collapse of the numismatic market, but the TPG market. Your explanation of why you like CaC reveals some insight into what I'm talking about. There is already a system set up for sight-unseen trading of coins - that of the TPGs. However, we are already seeing speculators losing faith in the TPGs.

Of course, there are a number of reasons for this failing faith including the advent of the "self-slabbers", apparent changes in standards, apparent inconsistencies, apparent conflicts of interest...the list goes on and on.

Thus we now have the advent of CaC, who are supposed to do what the TPGs were already supposed to be doing...creating a system to market coins sight-unseen. Faith is now restored for some! But, what is going to happen when the faith in CaC falters, and the same tar pits that the TPGs have ventured into befall CaC?

CaC is supposed to build faith in the sight-unseen market, which is the world of the TPGs. If faith in CaC fails, where are the TPGs going to stand, because faith is already faltering heavily with speculators. If this were not so, CaC would not have even been able to think about finding a foothold in the sight-unseen market.

It's good that you do not believe there is an ulterior motive, because if you do begin to think so, where will you put your faith in the sight-unseen market? However, consider this: the sight-unseen market already exists to an extent, and those involved in that market are already milking the masses for what it's worth. John Albanese is in no way creating a market, he is manipulating a market. Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with market manipulation as long as it is known that is what you are doing. Many large dealers and auction houses are involved in such manipulations, but I do not know of any that hide the fact by claiming to be some sort of numismatic do-gooders trying to get the best deals for the collectors. No. They are in the business of making money for themselves and their suppliers and they're good at what they do.

That is why I believe there are ulterior motives to CaC.

This is entirely not true, as you actually state in the next sentence.

Again...faith! The CaC sticker gave supporting faith in the coin - a faith that the TPG itself should have already instilled, but for reasons given above, is not there. Would you have placed the bid if a person you completely trusted told you that they looked the coin over and it's a stunner cameo!? Think about it. It's the fact that there was something else there that enforced your faith in the sight-unseen transaction. It could have been CaC, it could have been a close and trusted source or friend, it could have even been a new TPG that has finally proven to the numismatic world that "graders can get it right all of the time".

The point is is that a speculator or collector must have faith in the source of the coin and its description. When faith disappears, then that source will ultimately disappear with it.

Unfortunately, the slab market is not just limited to the internet. There are plenty of slabs in dealers' shops who have never went on the internet, let alone a computer. These are the hot beds for possible CaC counterfeits. Yeah, the counterfeit may be found after the fact of the sale, and the dealer will have to reimburse the buyer, and after it's all said and done, CaC will just leave a bad taste in the small dealers' mouths. This is important, because many new collectors will eventually end up in these B&Ms, and that sentiment of CaC could start trickling upstream. Not only that, but "newbies" will not necessarily have this knowledge, and will leave the slab game in contempt.

Numismatics is a rather philosophical hobby. Grading itself is subjective and one's philosophies will overall affect, in the very least, that aspect of their participation in this hobby. So would also such issues as errors, cleaning, toning, damage of various sorts, buying and selling strategies, etc. You cannot get away from the philosophical aspects of this hobby.

And since one's philosophies are at the forefront in numismatics - as a collector (not necessarily as a speculator) - then initial approvals and objections will always be philosophical in nature.

I hope this gives you a bit more insight into some of what I am speculating and foreseeing with regards to CaC.

 

" I don't forsee stickers changing prices"
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I have heard the a certain person has been manipulating Peace Dollar " bids " on the CDN ( notice all the " pluses" last week.........by bidding on CAC stickered coins only.........as a test

This person owns CAC and has taken part in both the PCGS and NGC start-up

Initials are JA

 

The reason I stated that was because I have not heard one collector say they would pay a premium for a coin with a sticker. If the bid price is manipulated it would apply to both coins with and without stickers.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Very resourceful, Clockwork Orange.

 

NPcoin,

The TPG's do and will continue to make mistakes. That is a simple fact of life. Overall, they do a great job of grading coins and I think the large majority are graded properly. That does not mean that I am willing to risk $2,000 in hope that I don't get one of the coins they got wrong. If I had another set of eyes to affirm the CAMEO designation, it would have had the same effect as the CAC sticker.

You can say that the TPG's were formed in order to create a sight unseen market, but you already admitted in your first post that they failed in that respect. The doesn't mean there is no faith in the TPG's, it just means that from time to time you will need a second opinion. I would have no problem buying a common date Morgan MS65 sight unseen for $150. If I get the coin and think it is overgraded and is actually an MS64, I can dump it for a small loss. But I think before I buy a 1945 FB Mercury Dime, that I would like to see the full bands for myself. If the CAC suceeds, I won't need to see it.

Besides, we both know that the benefits provided by the advent of the TPG's goes further than the sight unseen market. The scamming dealers that sold every single coin to unsuspecting buyers as gem bu are gone or scratching out a living on flea-bay. That alone is enough to ensure their longterm stability. I don't think anyone (collectors) wants to return to what is was like before the TPG's regardless of what happens with the CAC. Just my opinion.

 

I read a magazine last week, while in the hospital, I think is was "Coins" and there was one dealer in there that was charging higher prices for CAC'd coins. Same date, MM,grade, irregardless of the TPG, if the had a CAC sticker they were higher by $30-$50. I'm surprised no one else has noticed.
Vegas Vic

 

here's a new subject...........................

the way i see it.

the CAC game is like a baseball game, the TPG'S are the players and CAC is the UMPIRE!!

now let's go to the VIDEO TAPE!

 

OK, this maybe a stupid question (yeah, I know...no stupid questions...just stupid people, right-that too), anyway...I'm not completely sure how CAC works and exactly what they do. I have seen their sticker on various slabs in the past but have never been too interested in it. I have all of 1 slabbed coin in my collection.

So, can someone explain exactly what CAC is doing. It sounds like its another company that people send already slabbed coins to to have a little hologramic sticker put on it as to say "yes, that grade you already paid for was right."

Am I understanding this right?

 

Cac

Just my weird humor-but I think we ought to call them
CAC "stink ons" rather than stick ons. It seems they are smelling up what was a far from perfect industry and by adding one more level of confusion for the normal hobbyist they have by there appearance stunk up the hobby. Far from straightenin it out as is their "stated goal".
Vegas Vic

 

You pretty much understand the underlying basis for it. You send it in, pay your fee, and they either send you the slab back non-stickered (kinda like a body bag, since what they are saying is the coin is over graded, but to place a red sticker and actually advertise the fact may lead them into some legal trouble), green stickered which pretty much says they agree with the TPG's assessment, or gold stickered which pretty much says that the TPG's assessment was too stringent and the coin very well is exceptional for the grade assigned (though this is not necessarily their endorsement that the coin should or would grade higher with the TPG).

 

You got it .
rzage:smile:hatch::hammer:

 

I think I understand the basis behind it. I think I'm going to just stick with improving my own grading...and grading them myself. I'd rather spend my money on the coin itself

Just out of curiosity, how much does CAC cost?

 

Yeah, or a raw coin. I don't have a problem with slabbed coins...but I don't see myself ever having one slabbed. I'd rather have the skill to look at the coin (if a slab or a 2x2 flip) and be able to grade it accurately myself.

 

here's a new subject.........................

bottom line.

when you buy it and you think it is x grade............you HOPE that the grade satisfies the new owner, when you go to sell, slabbed or raw!!

 

:thumb: