Here's a new subject--CAC stick-ons

How they ever talked us into giving them a 5% market share (which is what I understand some are saying it is in another forum) is beyond me. All you who regularly submit your coins to the TPGs, do you submit them in sealed plastic? The first thing they're going to tell you is they need to be able to handle the coin. But at the same time 5% of the market and climbing for all anybody knows is accepting "plastic grades" from CAC as the final word. If you ask me (and I know you didn't), they ought to size their stickers the size of the coins and put them right over the coins. That way, there's no room for argument--that's the grade, and everybody has to accept it! :rolling:

 

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I don't know where you got the 5% from, but there is no way in hell that CAC has come anywhere close to that number.

 

What about on Earth?

They're getting attention from the market...collectors are falling for or buying into it (choose your own term)...that's the point...

 

Are they really? Other than a few dealers - some of which have a financial interest in CAC - I don't seem many people pushing CAC. I see very few of their coins on the floor or in auctions. I also bet 99%+ of collectors have never heard of CAC.

Of the CAC coins I've seen/owned, I can't say that they are anything other than ordinary.

 

I hope you're right, Greg. Needless to say, I think these guys should make one big sticker and stick it over their big mouths. Then again, of course, I’m being diplomatic, and not saying exactly where I think they should stick it...

 

I'm going to wait until the graders come out who will grade the graders (CAC) who are grading the graders (TPGs).
Once you get enough stickers in place, it won't matter.
You won't be able to see the coin.

(Guess who doesn't like CAC.)

 

Greg,

You don't really think that only 1% of the coin collecting community is aware of the CAC do you. Not that we would be able to prove it, but you know I am a gambler, I will take that bet.

You know I have voiced my support for the CAC with regards to the advertised reason it was created, to help create a reliable system for buying coins sight unseen. I think all of the negative hype about the CAC is exactly that, hype. If you don't like the CAC sticker, ignore it. I don't foresee the sticker changing prices and I don't really believe that both NGC and PCGS have changed their grading standards since the inception of the CAC. Furthermore, if only 1% of collectors are even aware of the CAC, then what is the reason for all of the hype in the first place.

 

And permit me to add, Kanga, that'll probably suit these crooks just fine... :headbang:

 

Yep, I think it is less than 1% that are aware of CAC. A large percentage of the "collector" market is US Mint purchases. You think the typical Mint buyer knows about CAC? Many other people buy only from local shops and do not use the internet for coin purchases. You'd also be stunned to know how many collectors come into coin shops and have no knowledge about slabs and they've been around 22 years!

Take a look at eBay. Right now there are 288 CAC coins on eBay. Exclude the Heritage Auction spam and there are a grand total of 12 coins. That's out of over 130,000 listings in the US coin section. You think the average buyer is going to run across one of these? Kind of puts that 5% of the market number to shame.

Perhaps there is an agenda by the backers of CAC to promote it and the resistance you see is reasoning of collectors who see this for the disturbing idea it really is?

 

Seems really foolish. Why do we need to authenticate the authenticators. I thought thats why we buy a pcgs or ngc graded coin. But now thats not good enough? And now we need the authentication authenticated. LOL >

 

I asked my dealer if he had heard of CAC He asked me if that was one of the new grading companies starting up...he didn't really know.

On his desk in the back is the latest issues of coin world, NN and other magazines...so you would think he would be up to speed.

 

CAC Stickered Coins

Where will it all end? Soon another few companies will appear and challenge CAC for market superiority offering the same services. And then what? Another round of companies created to grade CAC and its new competitors? As the old saying goes "buy the coin, not the holder". If we would all do that; CAC and its potential followers would be out of business in 90 days. I personally refuse to purchase a CAC coin. Why waste my money on a 2nd grading opinion. If I am not qualified to look at a slab and decide yes or no, I should be growing tomatoes in the backyard and and investing in stocks. As they have many opinions that are free and a broker that will help you buy them. Not as excting as coins, but then if I'm that big a bonehead, I shouldn't be buying them anyway.
Vegas Vic

 

it was a get rich quick scheme that somehow actually worked. As if we have a bunch of gullible fools in our hobby.

 

Greg,

I should have been more clear in my post. I was referring to the rare coin collecting community and I believe that the OP was also referring to that market as well. The CAC only affects coins in TPG holders, which are predominantly rare coins.

 

I bet Leadfoot has an opinion to share on the CAC phenomenon. C'mon, out with it.

My view - I think the practice will lead to higher prices for the collector. In surveying Coin World, my perception is that CAC stickered coins are priced significantly higher. One can debate whether this is appropriate, but logically, the seller can demand more money for the extra endorsement.

If the practice becomes a big part of the better coin market, then smaller collectors will pay more for access to these coins. As such, I am not a fan.

 

I was aware that only rare coins will have the CAC sticker. I just believe it is useless to anyone besides a large dealer selling coins out of magazine or at auction. It will only drive prices up, which if NGC and PCGS are doing there jobs in the first place is unnecessary. The only person who stands to lose on the CAC deal, is the ultimate purchaser, the collector.
Vic

 

A reliable system for buying coins sight unseen does not and cannot exist. This is the supposed purpose of the TPGs, and it has failed to accomplish what it originally intended to do...or did it? Business is about profit, and there is certainly profit to be made, both by the slabber as well as the speculator on slabs.

CaC adds most definitely another level of (false) security regarding a coin and its condition. Yet, there are so many aspects and attributes regarding each coin that two coins graded even MS-67 can and do vary so vastly. TPG slabs are really a lot like stocks. Stock prices in no way reflect the actual value of a company. Stocks simply are an indicator of investor faith in a company.

I believe that CaC is an attempt to place further faith in the slab. As the faith is built in the slab, the prices would generally rise, just as with stocks, as there is some form of security about the overall condition and marketability of the slabbed coin.

That is not to say that I personally do not believe that CaC (as well as the TPGs) has an ulterior motive.

Something that I am surprised has not yet surfaced in most of the discussions regarding CaC is the fact of how easily the sticker may be forged/counterfeited. How long is it going to be before eBay and other markets are flooded with false CaC gold?

As the market becomes saturated with supposed CaC slabs, and speculators begin their trading game at full speed, when the gold is found to be false, what's gonna happen then? Most certainly, CaC stickers will at that point become a moot point in the market, because speculators will shy away from them, because the faith in CaC would then be lost.

But, even further, it is very possible that the faith in slabs themselves may lose hold on the market, and speculators may shy away even from that avenue.

The whole TPG industry is upheld by speculators. That's not to say that only pure speculators are the ones that keep the TPGs going, but rather the fact that collector/investor speculation of the short term market is what drives the profits to the TPGs. This self same speculation is what will continue to drive profits, now toward CaC.

The problem, though, is normally a market will build in the form of a pyramid. You would have the base of the market where the investor faith will have its foundation, and upon that investor faith, the rest of the industry will grow atop it.

What I personally see with the numismatic investment world is an entirely different story. Instead I see the pyramid upside down, with bits and pieces being placed under the foundation, raising it higher into the air. CaC is just another smaller piece of stone raising the massive foundation of numismatics into the air. Eventually, that pyramid is going to topple, and every piece that stands atop the stones that fall away will fall to the ground.

If CaC does truly gain any meaningful market stance (which it still has quite a long way to go to do so), and it eventually fails...I believe that it very well may take the TPGs with it.

Just some cud to chew on for a while.

 

As long as you buy the coin in the slab , it doesn't really matter if a cac sticker is on it , what bugs me is when a dealer tries to get more money because it has a cac sticker on it .
rzage

 

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NPCoin,

Your post is very prophetic, but I doubt that the CAC will cause the complete collapse of the numismatic market. I don't think that the CAC has an ulterior motive. I think John Albanese sincerely wants to create a sight unseen market and wants to be compensated for creating it. It appears that most collectors/dealers have allowed their own cynicism to convince them that the CAC is simply a scam perpetrated with only one purpose in mind, to take their money. With this closed minded approach, the CAC will most likely not survive.

I personally have already benefited by the creation of the CAC. Shortly after the CAC's inception, I bid on a 1942-P NGC PF66 CAMEO Jefferson War Nickel in a Heritage signature sale. If you are not aware, CAMEO proofs from 1936-1942 are exceedingly rare for all denominations and the 1942-P Jefferson Nickel is no exception. There are currently only 9 such graded examples in existence in all grades. However, the price difference between the CAMEO and non-cameo coin is over $2,000. That meant if NGC mistakenly awarded the coin a CAMEO designation, the buyer of the coin was basically SOL. Furthermore, the photo provided by Heritage was terrible and called the CAMEO designation into question. If this coin did not have a CAC sticker, I would not have been able to even place a bid on a coin that I have wanted for years. Since the coin had the CAC sticker, I felt comfortable enough to endure the risk and place a strong bid. I ended up winning the lot and upon receipt, discovered that the CAMEO designation was well deserved and that Heritage's photo was basically garbage. In this case, the CAC did what it was designed to do. It created the ability for the consumer (me) to buy a coin sight unseen.

With regards to your fear of counterfeit CAC stickers, the CAC provides and online database that you can check to see if the coin actually has been stickered. It is very easy to use, all you need is the certification # on the TPG slab.

I have now divulged my personal reason for supporting the CAC. What I would like to hear from the opponents of the CAC is a specific case in which the CAC had a negative impact on their numismatic collecting experience, rather than broad philosophical objections.