In God We Trust (til when?)

I'm not an US citizen, and I don't know enough about the US constitution and laws, hence I won't plead the case @Suarez arose in his OP.

I find the whole thread VERY interesting (a lot of reading) as a debate and I've not learned more about US values and people's beliefs in decades (not sure I get everything that is written in these 200 posts because my understanding of english isn't good enough though).

From an european point of view there are many things I would like to comment on, but will not, as moderators would certainly find it political or religious and I wouldn't want my posts to be edited when I can prevent that from happening ("while in Rome....." and although I've been a CT member for 15 years I'm only a visitor, a tourist here )

From the coin collector point of view (that's not political I guess), what is written or drawn on a coin tells us about the issuer, their political messages, their propaganda. We all have coins featuring people we don't like (or wouldn't want to see face to face) or promoting ideas we dieagree with (I have coins showing Caligula, Caracalla, or modern dictators...and even one Che Guevara, or symbols we hate (e.g. swastika)). IGWT on US coins tells me about the US civilization independently from any emotional feeling. No more no less

Please go on, this thread is a treat !!
Q

 

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It would be refreshing if more people shared your viewpoint.

 

Not sure if God exists, but if God does exist, He [or She?] sure doesn't need any human's help. Roger Williams, one of the founders of the Baptist church in America, noted that any church that needed government help to exist, probably wasn't a true religion. Or as he put it in his quaint 17th century language, "That cannot be a true religion which needs carnal weapons to uphold it."

 

Nice medal; haven't seen it before. Williams was also on the 1936 Rhode Island commemorative half dollar of course. [He was a defender of Native American rights.] Just like the Twain coin, it is somewhat ironic to have the IGWT motto on this coin. .

 

Not ironic at all, he was a devout Man of God and deeply religious. Also credited as one of the original abolitionists. this is my latest in a large Roger Williams/Rhode Island collection. (sellers pics)

 

At this point I'm not sure whether 95% of Americans would agree the Earth is actually round, let alone matters of religion or politics!

If your best argument is that you're right because others agree with you then I'd say you don't have an argument at all.

Lay out your case in your own words.

Rasiel

 

There is a difference between being deeply religious [as Roger Williams was - I have no problem with that] and trying to stuff your religious beliefs down other peoples throats with government help [definitely not Roger Williams.]

Disclosure: I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition, but I was baptized [total immersion] at the First Baptist Church, Santa Ana, CA - American Baptist - i.e., Northern Baptist - the ones who opposed slavery]. Back in the 1950's [yes, I am that old] the Southern Baptist Church was a strong proponent of separation of church and state; no more, alas.

 

I not falling for your crap again

 

Best to just ignore those type of posts

 

Here what I say to people who think the earth is flat...

 

yeah...probably Photo Shopped...

 

That's funny.

 

Flat doesn’t have to mean square, like your picture suggests.

 

I disagree with your premise that the incumbent idea, "In God We Trust" on coinage, basically the same as "Under God" in the pledge, has to have an argument to justify it's existence. Jurisprudence is built upon the principal of "Stare Decisis", meaning let the decision stand. This has been litigated for well over a century, with Courts, including the Supreme, having ruled. Were there not atheists 100 years ago? If so, what has changed from when the court ruled?

You claim the population has completely changed, so now its a different US than in the past. According to Pew Research, 90% of Americans still claim they believe in God.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/25/key-findings-about-americans-belief-in-god/

So, since the new idea has the case to make to displace the Court's ruling, (according to Stare Decisis), 10 percent does not seem DRAMATICALLY enough of a population belief to justify overturning a longstanding, and repeatedly reinforced, decision.

The Courts have ruled it is a de-minimus religious connotation, and stated it is not a legal issue to decide. Congress, our legal representatives, have passed the laws requiring it to be on our coinage. It is with the Representational branch of government that any changes should happen, not the courts.

Personally, I believe it crowds the coin too much, and prefer St Gauden coins without the motto. I personally wish it was not a requirement, but an optional component that could be on the coin if the design was conducive to it, but that is just my personal beliefs and have never tried to take action one way or the other.

Btw, referring to the earlier poster about knowing an atheist in a foxhole in Vietnam, I am sure they exist but I never met one in the Gulf War. Most of us were not very religious at the start of the war, the Chaplain services got progressively more well attended.

 

I guess we're beating a dead horse at this point but, to pick on the main point of your argument, I'm thinking you're guilty of "selective statistics" in making your case. The religious demographics in America are changing - and changing rapidly. 1950's USA was close to 100% Christian which is why the motto and the "under God" modification to the pledge passed unanimously in Congress. But in those years protestants (the demographic who would be fighting to keep IGWT) are down to 43% of Americans as a whole making this, effectively, a motto for a minority that shrinks by the day.

Here's a much more informative poll from Pew:

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

Catholics, Jews, Muslims and the New Agers who believe in a "higher power" are much less likely as a group to be in favor of IGWT. That's at least my perception.

Rasiel

 

I don't think its a dead horse. Your original post was talking about atheists possibly objecting to the phrase. I posted an article talking about percentage of Americans who profess believing in "God". I have no reason to know if Protestants prefer the phrase more strongly than Catholics, Jews, Muslims, or other groups, simply posting a fact.

Do you have any data supporting your perception that Protestants more strongly prefer the motto than other God believing groups?

What do you think about the idea the courts have asserted that this is more of a legislative question than a legal one? Sure, the legislature can pass unconstitutional laws at times, but since the courts have already stated that they believe its not unconstitutional, shouldn't the argument be in Congress and not the courts?

 

Statistical polls are in all cases presented in such a way as to present an agenda. Poll takers are well schooled in how to present a question in such a manner that they can mold the response...... I vividly remember many polls that were taken shortly after 9/11 that showed that better than 90% of Americans were believers....... The folks that want to see things like this change aren’t the majority. They are just the noisiest.

 

You got me there. That's not something I can back up for sure, it's just my take on it. Way up thread I gave my opinion that generally speaking it's not the Jewish way to wear your religion on your sleeve (unless it's tefllin lol!), Muslims would be in favor of a complete makeover, Catholics that I can tell are similar to Jews in this way of keeping it on the down-lo and really have no idea how minority groups like Mormons, Jehova Witnesses and so on feel about this. It seems to me that those actively in favor of IGWT would almost certainly be evangelical Protestants.

As for whether this should be an argument carried out in Congress, no, I don't think this is how it works. Once an act is passed there's nothing left to debate. Congress could, I suppose, delegate design issues to the U.S. Mint and make them sort of independent the way the USPS is. If that happened we'd probably see a torrent of new designs every month but that's another topic

Rasiel