Numismatic Ethics

It is very easy to judge your character based on the actions you admitted to. People that say "don't judge me, who are you!" almost to a fault have done something unjustifiably wrong and use an ad homien attack on those that point it out to them-because deep down they know it was WRONG. I think for you it would be better to admit that it was wrong or a bad lapse in judgement instead of reaching for straws trying to justify it. People get judged for their actions everyday whether or not they like it-myself included. If that situation arises again I would hope you would do the right and honorable thing and let the person know what they had-NOW if they didn't care, that is a totally different story.

 

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That's fine if you feel that way. I personally chose to not sink to your childish level of name calling and finger pointing. I am therefore done with this conversation.

 

You've got a lot of nerve there "pal" Why don't you just come out and say you want to pick on someone and cause an argument, and you've only been here a month. Unless you watched the transaction happen you are in no position to judge. For the sake of forum decorum and regulations, I won't tell you what I really think of you.

 

This has been a very, very interesting thread but it has certainly brought out the worst in some people.

 

All I have to say to all those out there crying shame, shame, shame is that you should not be receiving any more "good deals". Every time you run across something that represents an excellent value you should proclaim to the seller what an excellent value you are about to get by saying something like, "these prices are unheard of, and can't be obtained anywhere else that I know of."

I argued extensively on this thread only to prove that one individual was changing his standards on the fly, and then in the end reciprocated and argued my points.

I don't see how any coin dealer or any coin collector trying to make a buck could possibly do it by paying market prices. It would be virtually impossible.

What would I have said to he old Lady at the Bank? I probably would have told her about the silver, but to assume she didn't already know is no different than assuming she is poor and stupid.

I'm sure there is a line you should morally draw, but that line is your own.

Also if you don't know what you are doing, and if you don't arm yourself with knowledge, you cannot expect every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there to fill in the gap for your ignorance. Somebody is going to get a "deal" from you, and they don't have to be dishonest in order to do so. You, in your ignorance, will give it away.

 

Very astute and thoughtful commentary on the situation at hand.

 

What about it? If the seller wants to sell something for a specific price or at a starting price in an auction that is well below the "value" or "worth" of the item, then so be it. Otherwise they can set their reserves, up their prices, etc.

I purposefully put "junk" silver on eBay at times below melt on purpose...with Buy It Now! I also put "junk" silver on forums like CoinTalk here also, below melt (though have rarely sold it on forums because most people want to pay below 1/2 melt for "junk"). You can take your "junk" silver to a dealer and get considerably below melt for it.

Does that mean that I am being screwed over because I sell a roll of "junk" 1964 Kennedys for 85% melt, with a gem hiding inside? Or that the dealers should be ashamed of themselves for offering 10% below melt for a bag of "junk" 90% halves? Or that a seller on eBay is stupid or ignorant because they get below face value for something?

Of course not! Like I said, I place the price sometimes well below because I get it for well below. Could I get more for it? Of course I can! But, if I have already made a considerable markup on the sale and can make it possible for a speculator to make a small profit in the process, I will cut my margin. Not only does this give me a good reputation, but I am able to turn my own vested interest around more quickly, making that money work harder for me.

More often than one would imagine, people know exactly what they are doing.

 

I'll agree with what Hobo said and your observations... Some of us definitely have issues, demons, and chips on the shoulder which may never be conquered.

 

let me tell you what i did with some money i found on the floor in a movie theater. nothing and soon enough it was gone. i wont pick it up but then someone will so my new resolution is to pick it up and give it to charity and the needy. If god wants to give me money he will send millions not a few dollars found on the street. but if someone finds money 100 bucks on the parking lot and keeps it i cant call that person a thief

 

yea he got that wrong. GD is not old he is an antique

 

What i got my hopes up for nothing? what a shame

only some of us Bone? I dont think there is any one here who doesnt have their own sets of issues

 

That older saying went further than just the first sentence. If you take the context all the way through you end up with "You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then you shall see clearly to cast the mote out of your brother's eye." So the old saying you are thinking of actually speaks volumes more to how this whole thread progressed throughout the past few days, as opposed to "situational ethics". Then again, the analogy with the $100 bill speaks directly to this saying as well.

In the same situation, what would anyone of us do? Because the same judgment that everybody meted out here, is the self same judgment that we should receive if we did the same thing in the same situation. Something to really think about. As we speak to the OP we should remind ourselves that we are speaking to ourselves as well.

This assumption of facts goes even further than you might imagine. Every body is making an assumption that what the OP did was somehow "wrong" because he did not make an attempt to keep the bank customer from making a deposit. This person was not only "at work" but "on the clock". The "situational ethics" seems to abound in the thinking here. Does it mean nothing that the OP was on the clock at work and very possibly abiding by company Policies and Procedures as well as internal Risk Management rules?

Although many tellers will only glean over the P&P, and won't memorize every aspect of their position, the general practice during their training will instill a lot of these policies and procedures into their work habit.

It has been almost fifteen years since I worked for a bank, but I was the lead Compliance Analyst and Auditor for the Mortgage Banking Division of the bank I worked at. Failure to abide by not only government regulation, but also internal Policy and Procedure resulted in a number of branch employment terminations. I was also used a lot by the Risk Management department. This department works hand in hand with the legal department, just as the compliance department does, if the bank conducts internal compliance auditing.

If a teller is caught accepting counterfeit currency, this is a major Safety and Soundness issue dealing with compliance. If a teller misappropriates funds to the wrong account, this again becomes a major Safety and Soundness issue dealing with compliance. If a teller accepts a coin or currency that the internal Policies and Procedures prohibits, this is an internal audit issue with Risk Management (and, yes, a bank CAN refuse deposit of U.S. legal tender coin).

The same goes for a teller persuading a depositor not to deposit funds into an account. This, in fact, will become not only an internal audit issue, but also a compliance issue with Safety and Soundness. There are a number of legal ramifications for a bank employee to advise a depositor not to deposit funds...especially if the person is elderly! (though we know it was simply an "older" lady, not elderly).

Here is a Safety and Soundness issue that could land the bank into legal trouble: the lady walks into the bank with $10 face value 1964 BU Kennedy halves "worth" $160 and puts them on the counter to deposit to her savings account; the teller advises the woman that the coin is worth 16x face value and should go sell them to a coin dealer rather than deposit the funds into her account; the lady leaves in search of a dealer to sell the coins to, thus not making the $10 deposit; an ACH withdrawal request comes into her checking account (which her husband made with their debit card assuming the $10 was being deposited), over drafting the account by $5; the savings account which she sought to make the deposit into is the overdraft coverage account, but since the deposit was not made, there is no money to cover the over draft; the bank initiates an over draft, charges her a fee; the payee receives the "bounced" draft back and initiates a service charge; the county prosecutor, looking for good PR in election year, decides to "make an example" (since writing or authorizing a draft on insufficient funds IS illegal), and "all hell" breaks loose, and the lady and her husband contact the regulating authority over the bank and a Safety and Soundness investigation is immediately conducted.

Now, in all of this, the bank WILL be investigated not only to determine why the teller discouraged the deposit (and the government will consider NO ethics argument as an excuse), and determine if this meets bank deposit soundness issues by determining if internal Policy and Procedures were followed. If not (and such discouragement most likely is in violation of P&P), then the bank will be fined, and made to correct the situation with regards to the bank's fees, et al. However, the bank, in either case, will still be liable for an actionable suit for damages by the "older" couple. As well, the regulatory authority will then move on to determine if government regulations were violated in their safety assessment. Under their safety assessment, they will determine, first, if any federal or state laws were violated, including and especially those with regards to discrimination. They will then assess whether any internal rules were violated, which is a much lesser, but just as actionable, matter.

After it is all said and done, the bank will be made to correct the situation internally, including revising the P&P if needed, to ensure that such a situation does not arise again. This could possibly include justifiable termination of the teller.

Now, when you consider the possible outcome to a bank teller discouraging a deposit into an account when their intent of the depositor was to do as such, and considering from the "same source" as GD pointed to earlier, we are admonished to act ethically and morally in this manner: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart..."

I cannot see anywhere in anything the OP did that was in any way unethical. If anything, to discourage the deposit could have very well been deemed by authorities as illegal, unsound, and unsafe, and would as such had ended up being immoral as the overall outcome could very well have hurt his employer (or "master") financially and caused the bank to receive an overall bad reputation and image. Definitely not being obedient, nor having a singleness of heart toward one's employer.

But then, I guess it all depends on what you believe.

 

Since you seem to have knowledge of the banking system, maybe you can explain something to me. Over the last 45 years, I have taken hundreds of rolls of coins to one of the five local banks I have dealt with in that period. Each time I did that the rolls were taken from me, counted and put directly in the teller's drawer and I was given either bills or a deposit receipt, depending on the circumstances of the time. Not one time did any teller ever open any roll to see what was in it.

Now, if the OP had taken the roll in and put it in his drawer without checking it out, my opinion of what ensued would be a lot different. In normal practice, that roll would have remained in his drawer until the end of the day when he would have been placed in the vault, unless another customer came in and specifically requested a roll of halves.

Would you say that a teller would be justified in breaking open a few dozen rolls of quarters to check for silver or presidential dollars to search for any missing the edge lettering? And if any were found, to cherrypick them for himself? What is the difference between cherrypicking a few quarters or dollar coins from a few rolls and cherrypicking an entire roll of halves?

You say that for him to refuse, or even discourage, a deposit of a customer's funds would be an offense which could lead problems with the bank and possible to his discharge. I say that a quick discussion with the head teller or the bank manager might have saved that woman from making a mistake she probably didn't know she was making. If she was indeed and knowingly depositing valuable coins, then that would have been discovered within minutes. Perhaps in that conversation, the teller could have made the offer to buy the roll so that she would have more to deposit.

Truth is, there was no ethical reason for him to check the contents of the roll he was given for deposit (unless he was instructed to do that for each and every roll he comes across). And, having checked the roll, there was no ethical justification for him to set the roll aside for himself.

It's not a whole lot different from walking through a parking lot checking for any car with the keys in it and then thinking that you could take that car for a ride. After all, the owner obviously wanted you to and left the keys there to make it easier for you.

 

Submitted for your approval. A group of collectors have a friendly discussion on the topic of ethics. The discussion went 'round and 'round becoming heated at times. As would be expected with a large group no concensus could be reached.

There's a sign post up ahead. You've been compared to a common car thief. You're entering the Twilight Zone!

 

Every time I take in coins to cash in our bank MUST open and count the coins. Either by way of the large coin counter or by hand. They have gotten too many "junk" tokens and stuff to where they have too. This isn't becasue they don't trust me...heck...one of the ladies has known me since I was born

Speedy

 

On one hand I wish all tellers would, but then when I find dimes in the cent rolls, and stuff like 2€ cent coins, I don't complain that they don't check them. But I have found washers etc. in cent rolls.

 

I whole-heartedly agree with your post, insomuchas there are many pieces to the bank teller example that most readers in this thread have not considered. I briefly addressed this in my fist post in this thread. Bravo for nailing down the "internal policies and proceedures" angle.

 

For two years I worked part-time at a pawn shop...which opens up an entirely different discussion as to pawnshops being a boon or bane to a community. I will say that the store owner was “profit motivated” but did his best to be a benefit to the community. To limit the scope of the discussion to this forums focus.


The store did not deal in coins before I started working there, “too many variable” the boss said. They would often turn customers with coins away. As the closest thing to an “expert” they encountered, I spoke with the store manager about setting policies regarding loans/sales of coins. The short form was “Let Steve look at any coins that get brought in”. Because a fair and reasonable value could be determined, we limited ourselves to bullion, proofs, UNC (in government packaging). For raw coins or silver I would sit with the customers and show them a copy of the redbook, and PCGS price lists. I would explain the grading is subjective and that we could only offer X amount but a coin dealer may offer more (and I explained the difference between retail rices and what a dealer would likely pay).


Generally, individuals legitimately seeking a loan would accept my offer and later reclaim their merchandise, but those looking to sell would get ****y and storm out. What I found to be true was the general population greatly overvalues “old coins” and that coin collecting has a negative stereotype of being “snobby and elitist”.


Most of the uninformed individuals (wanting to sell) I dealt with received coins through inheritance or as gifts and did not want to be bothered by learning “about this crap”.


One incident sticks clearly in my mind, and individual brought in a horde of silver- dollars,dimes, quarters about 100 pieces. As I was explaining that most was “junk” and worth melt, but that these were...The guy cut me off before I could tell him they were “key dates” and said “I'll take $250 for all of them”.


Now here is where the assumption come in...how many of you are thinking this guy is a meth-head or stole the coins...actually he was a tenured college professor, long time customer – of our retail “store” who received the coins from a dead uncle (facts verified) and had no desire to deal with the coins actually he wanted to use the coins in trade for a firearm.


The store profited about $1200 when both transactions are considered. Did his ignorance and apathy make us “the ethical bad guy”? After all he got what he wanted ($250 in credit).

 

I just continue to be amazed that people around here feel like someone has a special "duty" of righteousness to tell people what things are worth even when they are not asked. "Sir, what is this worth". Basically because someone has not answered a question that was not asked, they have sinned.

My question would be... how many bank tellers out there do you think know the value of old silver coins? Somehow I doubt not many. That point does not change anything, but the point is a bank teller is not a PM's expert, or a rare coin dealer, or anything but a bank teller.

The woman who came to the bank was trading American coins, for American currency... end of story. If she were to spend them anywhere else she would have gotten face value. Not many places will do a silver conversion on the spot for you (I did read about a gas station that would do this). To 99.9% of everyone if those coins were used in a transaction they are only worth .50c.

Just like to 99.9% of drunkards a sterling shot glass is a SHOT GLASS.

The part about this whole argument that really burns me is the people who argue the teller was immoral are the same ones who only apply their morality to certain situations.

For example it is ok to cherrypick, but not ok to buy a valuable proof set for cheap et cetera, et cetera. I think many people would be able to follow the logic better if you just developed a standard.

In order to make this black and white though you must always let someone know before you make a purchase of any type if you feel like the deal is a "steal". It doesn't matter if you are dealing with the old lady at the bank, or your local thrift store. If you find something of great value you must declare it if the price doesn't match up. You cannot cherrypick from dealers, and you basically can't get a good deal anywhere unless the person selling you the item is fully aware that HE/ SHE IS WILLING TO SELL THEIR ITEM AT A RIDUCUOLUSLY LOW PRICE.

The problems and arguments arise in these scenarios when people start making assumptions about certain people, and feeling sorry for some people rather than all people. The whole thing is steeped in personal feelings, and judgements.

My issue with all of this is I can't stand being preached to by others who have wishy washy beliefs, and yet are still quick to throw a stone. They like to apply their morality when convenient, make exceptions when they feel it is ok to do so, and keep a large stone with them at all times. This is the morality of tyrants. If you want people to understand who you are and where you come from just state it. If you feel in your heart that the teller is a theif, then say so, but you must apply that same beleif accross the board. ANYTIME YOUR KNOWLEDGE MAKES YOU AWARE OF GREAT VALUE, YOU MUST DECLARE IT LEST YOU BECOME A THIEF. BECUASE IN THIS CASE SILENCE IS SIN. YOU CANNOT BE JUST A CUSTOMER OR JUST SALESMEN OR A TELLER, YOU MUST BE ALSO PROTECT THE IGNORANT.

 

I posted this photo about 5 months ago - can't find the original thread.

I asked for a roll of halves and this is what the teller gave me - no kidding!!! He even said something like: "Hmmm. Looks like you have something good there!"

Now, should i have said, "Young Man! You can go down the street and sell that at the local coin shop for at least $10. Then take that money and buy some donuts for your patrons to enjoy while they wait..."

But I didn't. I thanked him and ran the hell out of there as fast as I could....