Concerning the recent discussions about Third Party Graders

There has been a rising amount of discussion on various forums regarding PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and TPG's in general.

I believe it is extremely important for the collector to learn how to grade on their own. And many times, even at PCGS, the graders get it wrong. They may not know the weak strike characteristics of a particular die marriage. They may excuse a cleaning on a key date coin, and still slab the coin.

I notice many collectors, even advanced collectors, will demand PCGS slabbed coins only for their collection.

It is a dangerous business buying the plastic instead of the coin. PCGS holders many cleaned coins, and coins with other problems. Don't think that buying PCGS coins eliminates the risk of buying a problem coin.

If you learn how to grade the series you are collecting, then you can eliminate the risk of buying a problem coin.

Also, we have seen an increasing amount of fake slabs. You just might be purchasing a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS slab. Then we have stories of slabs being unsealed, the coin is removed, and a substitute coin is put in it's place. The slab is then resealed, and it looks as if it hasn't been tampered with.

All of this can be avoided if you learn your series. Understand each die marriage, and the characteristics of each.

I will guarantee that learning to grade on your own is the most important part of collecting. Once you do this, you are free from TPG's, and you won't need to rely on them.

TPG's tend to vastly overgrade key dates such as the 1916-D dime, 1877 cent, and the three key date barber quarters. The only way you won't overpay is if you know the grading standards.

It cannot be stressed enough, you must grade for yourself. And you must be able to detect cleanings, and it a coin is genuine or not. This will require a great amount of work, but it is necessary.

 

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Spot on information and very relevant at times like these. :thumb:

Great Post.
Ben

 

I second that, absolutly. You mention die marriages, but this kind of intricate knowledge can be applied to other series as well.

Know your years, decades, mints, major hub changes, etc etc and be able to grade and evaluate beyond the generic guide level. This will help you in the hobby to seperate the average from the choice, and the advantage will be yours.

 

Well said although I never considered learning about coins to be work. I enjoy the study of Numismatics as much as the actual collecting. Speaking of which, there is a great article in CW about the 1875 Cent where the die was marked in an effort to catch a mint employee stealing from the mint.

 

not only PCGS others get it wrong too

 

But intill I get to the point where I can grade a MS coin to within a pt. I still like tpg coins , granted I must like the coin first and think it's properly graded , for the time being I still like the security of a PCGS , NGC or ANACS coin .
rzage

 

The guidance that each collector "learn how to grade the series you are collecting" is excellent advice.
BUT
You are talking about months, if not years, of studying.
And what standards do you use?
And where do you find the time?
And where do you find the accurately graded coins to study?

STANDARDS:
Since the consensus is that even the best TPGs don't always get it right, do you want to use them as your standard?
I think many "brick and mortar" dealers are worse. There's a well known dealer that attends all the big shows in my area. He's well liked as a person, but everyone laughs at his grading.
And most dealers at a show are not going to be thrilled if you just sit there examining coins. You're taking up buyer space.

TIME:
How many people have time to spend just learning about coins?
How many people have sources close to them?
I'm retired and live just outside a large city. I've got the time and I can find dealers.
Becoming a dealer is an excellent choice too. But how many people can afford to leave their day job and change professions?

ACCURACY:
Who/What will be your source of accurately graded coins?

Philosophically the idea of learning to do your own grading is excellent.
In practice that philosophy falls apart quickly.

SOLUTION:
Stick with the people (TPG or dealer) who has paid the "dues".
But with the understanding they are human and subject to error.

 

Most collectors can learn to grade circulated coins in a reasonable time frame. The problem IMO is in the MS range. I've never bought into the 70 point grading scale because I thought it was bogus from the start and I still think it's bogus. If you think about it, the reason so many collectors have a problem with grading MS coins is because the differences are so minute , every coin is different in some way, and there is alot of subjectivity in grading.

What I did when I was still collecting was to avoid coins in the high MS range. That's where a one point error can cost you alot in many cases. Not only that, but IMO, many are way overpriced to begin with. I fail to see where a tick or two translates to a few thousand dollars. Now some people have the disposable income to buy such coins and that's fine with me, it's just not for me. The extent of my experience as a collector is not in any way enhanced by an extra point or two.

As for not having the time to devote to the hobby, in my mind it begs the question, is the objective to accumulate a bunch of coins or to savor the time enjoying all the hobby has to offer. Everybody starts out green so, as I see it, the pace one chooses should be commensurate with the knowledge they accumulate along the way.

I see your point in that if someone doesn't invest the time and effort, for whatever reason, sticking with certain grading services is a measure of security in many cases. On the other hand, they are missing out on much of what the hobby has to offer.

 

Very sage advice about MS coins and more good information. Thanks for sharing Vavet.

Ben

 

Vavet, good post. I still gravitate toward circulated coins [Why pay for an MS65 if you can be perfectly happy with an AU?] and avoid coins where there are huge price differences between consecutive grades -- the danger zone of collecting in my opinion. I still buy slabbed coins for the MS grades, and haven't made it to the level where I believe my opinion is better than their's.

 

Which issue is this article in?

 

Righto chap!

 

I'm glad you can consistantly grade coins to a point , but until I and the majority of people can , tpgs are going to be part of the future . Since joining this site my grading skills have improved greatly , and like I said earlier in this post , that when buying a slabbed coin , I must agree with the grade , the problem with me is while looking at a raw type coin where I'm not familiar with the series I can get to a couple of pts. of the MS grade but not knowing the precise grade I still need that tpg crutch to give me some peace of mind .
rzage:smile:hatch::hammer:

 

It's in the August 4th edition. My copy was mailed on 7/21.

 

I couldn't give a rats sphincter muscle for TPGs. I care about coins. Not the freaking plastic.

 

Although I disagree with the grades that I have seen on the vast majority of TPG slabs, I would not say that they are "wrong". This is a point on which I believe I tend to skew from a majority of the numismatic community. The point is: grading is subjective.

There are too many factors involved that will make a coin grade differently from time to time, even utilizing the same standard. Especially when you come to the point of a TPG. Take PCGS, for example. If all goes well, your coin will receive a consensus, the best of three, on the grade. So the first time you send the coin in, the graders grade it: 65, 65, 66. So you get your MS65 coin back. You crack it out, and send it back again. The consensus is 65, 66, 66. So it comes back as MS66.

How is this wrong? Grading is subjective! You very well may have gotten grader #1, #2, and #3 the first time; but, grader #1, #5, and #3 the second time. Does this mean that a large percent of graders at the TPG are "wrong" all the time? Because their grade was not amongst the higher on the consensus? Or does it mean something else? Like bias?? Yes! Bias is a part of grading. What does everyone think "eye appeal" is?

I personally believe that this issue is easier to understand than the issue of how a weakly struck coin can be considered higher mint state (66, 67, etc.) when technically, those grades are reserved for above average strike. Just because the market will accept it is no excuse. But, that also does not mean the grades are wrong, either.

Not only that, but, the standard which is utilized is also important. Not everybody uses the same standard. So identifying what standard a person is utilizing is also important in understanding how and why a coin received a certain grade. One person's MS66 under Standard A could be another person's MS64 under Standard B.

Do you blame them? When someone asks "which TPG should I send this to?" you get a consensus to "send it to PCGS, you'll get more money for it when you sell it." And that is a bigger problem than the simple blind faith. PCGS evangelists all have one truth: "PCGS means More Money".

Very rarely do you really see somebody advise not to send a coin to a TPG. In fact, even some of those who do not "deal with slabs" will concede that sending the coin to a TPG is a "good idea" because they will authenticate it for them. Then when the question comes up of who to send it to..."PCGS because you'll get more money for it when you sell it."

This is the biggest problem of them all, in my opinion. So it is no wonder that people blindly follow PCGS as the scripture of the numismatic world.

I do not send my coins to TPGs and I wouldn't unless I actually desire to sell the coin for an "insane profit" for whatever reason, or because a client "demands" it. I see TPGs as simply a waste of money, a carnie yeller's hype, and bordering on the somewhat unethical. What I would like to see is simply a good authentication service that charges a "proper" fee for the service with the option of encasing the "authenticated" coin without a grade into their $.10 piece of plastic and $.15 piece of inert insert and label.

But, where there is money to be made...

 

i wonder what gave you that idea. the only thing i thought about PCGS was they are not blind but my recent submission changed that too they had my kutch kori coins upside down the reason i say pcgs is the best and to me thy will always be the holy cow is because i can get 65/66 coins in 64 slabs they are inconsistent which provides me with great opportunities to acquire great coins at reasonable prices