I was going to post this as a response in one of the many threads here regarding counterfeit coins, but I think the subject needs to be addressed on its own. All the threads I've read here that show great pictures of counterfeit coins have one thing in common. Other than the written descriptions and comments, the coins themselves aren't identified as counterfeit. Unless you intend to pass them on to others as genuine, shouldn't these coins be stamped or engraved "Counterfeit", "Copy" or "Fake"? If they are being kept for study or instructional purposes, such identification wouldn't affect their purpose or value. If they are not marked, then at some point in the future they are going to get back into the general mix and being accepted as genuine by the unsuspecting. You may intend to keep control of the coins, but some day your decendents or estate will have to deal with them and they might not be nearly as knowledgeable as you are about them. Even if they eventually find their way into the hands of a dealer, there is no guarantee that the dealer won't pass them off fraudulently. One poster has even given some fake Morgans out as prizes; who knows where those will wind up? I'm open to reasons as to why they are not or should not be properly identified (and I don't mean just on a holder which can easily be opened).
Aren't there laws about this kinda thing... http://collectors.org/Library/Hobby_Protection_Act.asp Applies to new production (post 1973) or new importation. IDK about existing stocks...I'm at work and don't have time to search for caselaw.
As he said, i think anythign made before the hobby protection act is stil fair game. But after the HPA if its not stamped, then the intent is to pass as real.... or something like that
I think marking them might be a good Idea. Like david said, what happens if relatives have to deal with your coins, they probably will not have a clue about fakes.
My understanding of the HPA is it went into effect when it was signed into law but it cannot be retroactive, as per countless United States Supreme Court rulings. However, to pass a counterfeit as genuine, even for the purpose of collecting, violates another law so counterfeits made prior to the HPA, do not have to have the COPY stamp but they must be declared a counterfeit when sold or passed on to someone else. If the counterfeit item(s) is/are not declared counterfeit, then the person presenting it as authentic currency can be charged with passing counterfeit currency. That's how I read/see it. Ribbit Ps: For those who collect the "vintage" counterfeits, marking it COPY ruins the value of the counterfeit so asking someone to take away value on their collection, is going to fall on deaf ears. :whistle:
There is an industry today which makes copies of rare and type coins that are required by law to be marked as copies. My comments did not refer to those since they are already (supposedly) marked. I was referring to coins that we come across occasionally which seem genuine but later prove to be fakes. PS: How on earth can marking a worthless (counterfeit) coin with "COPY" lower its "value"? Just because you might pay for and collect counterfeits doesn't make them valuable.
I do believe that today qualifies as being after the 1973 HPA was passed so they are REQUIRED by Federal Law to have COPY stamped on them. Ones made PRIOR to the law, are not required to have the stamp but as I said earlier, to transfer ownership of a PRE-1973 counterfeit, the owner of said counterfeit must disclose it is a counterfeit or be in violation of other counterfeit laws. First of all, they are not worthless, but I will let Hobo explain this one since he is an avid counterfeit collector and can explain this much better than I but I will say this, pre-1973 counterfeits "can be" distinguished by the fact COPY is not on them whereas the post-1973 counterfeits are required by law to have COPY on them, thus, what distinguishes a 1909-S VDB and its worth, is no different than a pre-1973 counterfeit - it dates the counterfeit (somewhat). Put COPY on all counterfeits, then try to figure out when they were made? But like I said, Hobo can better/further/fully explain what I said about value. :thumb: Ribbit
FWIW, several people I know collect pretty odd stuff (prairie agates, dried leaves, butterflies, etc.) for the pure enjoyment with very little thought to the value of the items. Take Care Ben
I know peeps who collect petrified dinosaur poop so I guess that's a 1893-S MS-64 Morgan to the prairie agate collectors? :mouth: Ribbit
Great discussion, and as the owner of a few counterfeits myself, I agree with the OP. My copies do not have the "COPY" stamped on them, and I'm not sure how I would go about this. I certainly do not want to pay someone to stamp it, and I don't want to ruin the coin as well...so I'm not sure how I would go about this cheaply?
It is my understanding that the mere possession of a non-marked counterfeit coin is not illegal. It is also my understanding that it is not illegal to sell a counterfeit coin as long as the coin is sold as a counterfeit and not genuine. (I am working on getting something to back this up. I am trying to buy a counterfeit coin from an eBay seller but I don't want it stamped 'COPY'. He wants to see something in writing verifying the above before he sells on to me. My contacts at ANA are all very busy getting packed for Baltimore so it may be 2 or 3 weeks before I can get something definitiive.) Coins that were made prior to the HPA were not required to be stamped 'COPY'. Criminals making modern counterfeits certainly do not stamp their fakes with 'COPY' (but then they are criminals, aren't they?). If you want to stamp your fake coins with 'COPY' go right ahead. Be my guest. But you will be reducing their value to a collector. (While you are at it, feel free to also stamp your genuine coins with your initials.) Counterfeit coins can be great educational tools. I enjoy showing a good counterfeit coin to friends and other collectors and ask their opinion of the coin. When I tell them the coin is counterfeit they usually want me to point out something that indicates the coin is counterfeit. That is where the education begins. This opportunity would be lost if the coin was stamped 'COPY'.
Aren't some (contemporary) counterfeit coins worth more than the originals? If not in cash value, then in terms of who made them and why. Just picked up a 1941-D Walking half made of lead or pewter. Could have bought a meal and a room for one night while running from the law! Putting copy on it would ruin the story value of it. Imagine a counterfeiter presenting a coin with COPY stamped into it. error, does not compute
Yeah . . . I'm going to stamp my Henning Nickel with the word Copy and then sell it on Ebay . . . yeah . . . that's the ticket! :goof: Ribbit
