T. Carisius Denarius with smoothing

So I bought this coin for 262 thinking it was a problem free coin. The coin was described as if it was problem free so I paid problem free money for it. I contacted the seller and let him know that the slab said smoothing on it; which I guess was dumb on my end because I should have looked for something that might indicate a problem designation. I contacted the seller and told him I do like the coin even with the problem but that I think I should get a partial refund for the coin. What do you think would be fair for both parties? Thanks!

 

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Opinion: It is listed on the slab so there is no adjustment indicated. Had it not been on the slab, someone probably would have outbid the sale price.

Update: I erred in assuming this was an auction. If it was sold from stock, adjustment or return is reasonable but auctions usually have a clause in the rules saying that slabbed coins are 'as-is'.

 

I personally would return it straightaway. If the seller didn't list smoothing and you couldn't see the slab when you bid then he tried to play you like a sucker. He should pay shipping both ways.
If, on the other hand, you just didn't notice it in the pics then you've no room to complain... Though I'd still try for a refund. To me smoothing is closer to a modern repro then ancient. It would drive me nuts not knowing what was the ancient celators design versus the modern schister who ruined its.

 

If there wasn't an image of the smoothing indication on the slab and it was lacking in description, I would simply return it. Smoothed silver is taboo in ancients.

 

Tooling/smoothing are indeed a no no in ancients. For instance, I wanted this coin, but the seller did not disclose the massive amount of taboo going on with it.


Luckily, I have eyes that can see. Too bad, it would've been a nice addition.

Return your slabbed smoothie.

 

Okay.

 

I’m not the kind of person who would purposely buy a tooled coin but I kind of like this coin and would like to keep it. The seller is willing to give me a partial refund of the coin. Any idea as to what would be fair? Thanks!

 

A very, very inexpert opinion here - I do not care for this coin at all, smoothed or not. It has a kind of fakey pressed look to it, and I do not care for the style, especially the lettering. This is an extensively faked issue and I think I'd be more comfortable if a legitimate die match could be found.

And yet let me also add that (to my dismay) several posts on Coin Talk have pointed out that slabbing services do not guarantee genuineness! I did not know this. So as far as the slab guaranteeing genuineness, apparently it does no such thing. "Smoothing" noted on the slab in this case strikes me as being a bit weasely - as if the slabber knew something was "off" about the coin and went with "smoothed" rather than "fake."

Also, I've never heard of silver being "smoothed" - I thought that smoothing was a bronze/patina thing. Silver I thought was described as "tooled." Maybe this is the same thing?

Again, I am not an expert. But I'm willing to learn!

 

I ended up returning it for a loss and a valuable lesson when it comes to buying a graded coin.

 

Grossly over-simplified, smoothing removes junky metal and corroded encrustations from the fields or flat areas to reduce surface roughness. Tooling removes metal to add or increase details that may or may not have been there originally. In extreme cases, tooling can actually appear the change the inscription and/or identity of the emperor depicted.

 

Does NGC often slab with the reverse on the front? I have a counterfeit Carisius slabbed by NGC but the obverse is set to the front of the slab.

 

Ngc does not slab coins they believe are fake.

Their opinion is one of the best in the world.

John

 

They make mistakes though. I have a counterfeit Carisius slabbed by NGC.

With the one @NLL has I’m surprised they placed the obverse on the front of the slab unless that was requested by the original owner.

 

Edit*, looking closer this seems to be the same exact coin that is now in the slab. I'd doubt both NAC and NGC would get authenticity wrong here.

Here's a legit die match, ex. NAC.

 

My observations to this situation:

1. If the OP saw the slab at the time of purchase, he shouldn't have bought the coin if he was concerned about the smoothing. I don't think it's the dealer's responsibility to point that out when it's plainly indicated by the grading service.

2. The coin that Michael Stolt posted is indeed the OP's coin. This coin sold for 650 CHF on a 450 CHF estimate by NAC in Switzerland May 2017. It is described as "Wonderful old cabinet tone, minor areas of weakness,
otherwise about extremely fine."

3. $262 on a coin that sold for closer to $800, contested in a public auction, seems like a very good deal to me.

4. I don't see evidence of smoothing but I do trust that NGC probably has indeed identified an area of it. There may be indications of it under the anvil, but it sure isn't really obvious at least to my eyes from the picture. I also believe NAC would have identified the tooling in their description if it were obvious and the market participants would have likely discounted it too in the price if it were obvious. Bottom line, it's not that obvious if it even really exists on this coin.

5. Depending on the OP's collection level, I think he might have thrown away a darn decent coin that he could have cracked out of the slab and been quite satisfied with at a wonderful price.

Now if the smoothing is really obvious in hand, then no I would not recommend keeping or buying it. I just don't think it is. Buy the coin, not the slab.

 

In fact, get rid of the slab as soon as you can.

A coin I purchased in NYINC. I couldn't care less was this slab says because I bought the coin, not the plastic.

 

I wonder why such a deep dive in price. Somebody took a bath on this coin. Is it possible that the smoothing wasn't noticed until after auction, which resulted in its loss of desirability to the owner and a corresponding reduction in value?

 

1 - The coin is perfectly genuine, but not nice.

2 - The slabbing with the reverse up was at the request of the submitter.

3 - The smoothing on the reverse was rather extensive, all around the tongs and in other places.

4 - Silver is smoothed all the time. To suggest that you can't smooth silver is naïve.

Barry Murphy

 

I agree with about everything @Carthago says here, especially with getting rid of the slab. The image @Michael Stolt posted does show some minor directional cleaning marks in a few areas. Most dealers would not even describe this but some would (CNG always describes even the most trivial "improvements"). However, even if it is a good value, if you detect smoothing and it bothers you even slightly, it will stay with you and you will see it every time you look at or think of the coin. If it were me, I would not be concerned with taking a bit of a loss on the return.

 

This was not minor directional cleaning. It should have been mentioned by NAC if it wasn't.

Barry Murphy