Real coin, fake NGC slab.

Are you sure the coin is authentic?

Obviously the slab is bad, but I've not seen too many bad slabs where the coin was good.

 

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This is the group the OP's coin was in. NGC edited all of the on-line certs; one coin they deemed counterfeit.

 

It's made a large number of collectors lazy, trusting the TPGs' judgment over their own. And that's made them EASIER to scam, not harder. The easiest way to scam people is to convince them you, or some third party, knows more about the item than they do. (And that's before factoring in the fact that slabs can be faked too, the entire point of this thread.)

Through my own personal observation? There is such a thing as independent learning you know. I also have functioning eyes I can look at coins with. People can lie all day about a coin but I can still see the coin and tell if it's fake, altered, or overgraded. I don't need anyone else to tell me that. (And an ugly coin is still an ugly coin regardless of what a seller or TPG says.) I can see for myself how good a coin is, and decide whether what a seller is asking is worth it to me. I don't care what the seller or some TPG tells me about a coin if I still don't like it, or don't think it's worth what the seller is asking for it.

If you don't have the ability yourself to decide whether or not something you're spending your money on is worth what it's being sold for, you shouldn't spend the money. Otherwise you're just begging to be ripped off.

(And before you try to go the route of questioning my expertise, I am not claiming to be infallible. But if a significant amount of money is on the line, and I can't be sure myself whether or not something is a scam... I err on the side of caution and take my money elsewhere. I'm not omniscient but I'd like to think I have enough sense to be cautious. My entire collecting life I've never paid more than a reasonable amount of money on a coin, and I've only ended up with a fake coin once, losing me a grand total of $15. Not a bad track record for over 30 years of collecting and counting. Number of slabbed coins I bought in that entire span of time? 3.)

 

That's not the comment I was arguing against; I fully agree.

 

You're assuming that TPGs make people lazy, as if lazy people didn't exist before the TPGs.

What did lazy people do before TPGs? Trust a dealer's hand written grade. Why? Because dealers knew more about coins than they did. Those lazy people still existed and back then you blamed them for their laziness. Now that TPGs exist, you've somehow justified projecting the guilt onto the TPGs. Why aren't you still pointing the finger at the lazy collector?

For people like yourself, who aren't lazy, the TPGs have changed nothing. You still buy coins based on how they look, not what a dealer or TPG says. Those who would've just bought what a dealer told them now just buy what a slab says.

TPGs don't make anyone do anything. Laziness is a choice. It was a choice before the TPGs, and it's still a choice after.

The fact that you think people will default to lazy and not do it is indicative of your own personal bias against other people and future generations.

The lazy people are still lazy, and the people who care still bother to learn to grade. Status quo again. Stop blaming TPGs for people being lazy; blame the lazy people and the liars.

 

The one I posted is the top left one

 

Let's just agree that some people rely too heavily on what a slab label says in terms of grade, the error type, the weight, and other mistakes that can be on labels.

How about we just move on from that point.

 

OK, didn't think I'd need to do this, but here we go...

I do think TPGs make some people lazier, but no, I'm not assuming, and never said, that TPGs are the only thing that make people lazy, that they make all people lazy, or that lazy people didn't exist before the TPGs. You're arguing against absolute statements I never made.

I have always believed that the primary responsibility lies on a consumer to educate themselves about what they were buying. I still do. While I do believe the TPGs are partially to blame for some people being lazier, I'm not projecting ANY responsibility on to the TPGs. I AM still pointing the finger at lazy collectors. (There's a very significant distinction between responsibility and blame.)

No argument here.

The problem is what it makes some people not do, and that is to learn to exercise their own judgment rather than rely on someone else's. People could indeed be lazy before the TPGs. But they make it EASIER.

I would say that direct observation and history have much more to do with that belief than any personal bias I have. A very large percentage of people (NOT ALL, BUT MANY) will always do what seems to be easiest. Are you seriously arguing that's not the case?

I do not assign 100% of the blame to the TPGs. But I indeed assign more than 0%. Again, I still think the ultimate responsibility lies on the buyer to educate themselves as to what they are buying.

Disagree with my stance on TPGs if you must, but please don't put words in my mouth.

 

So... wasn't one of the initial goals of TPGs to facilitate sight-unseen transactions between dealers? Dealer A might call a coin he's selling a 66, and Dealer B might call it a 64 if he's looking to buy, but a disinterested third-party grade would eliminate that sort of subjective/self-interest-based inconsistency.

Of course, there are many who say it's gone way off the rails in the years since.

 

Pretty sure their primary goal was to take advantage of uncertainty in order to make money. Can't fault them for that, I guess. Doesn't mean I need to respect them for it though.

Count me as one who never thought it was on the rails.

 

Wow. Definitely looks like someone was trying to mass market the concept of making fake slabs only for profit.

Problem is, what happens when the slabs get better? It is not exactly rocket science to make better slabs and copies of TPG paper inserts. If they copy real cert numbers, print up authentic looking inserts, and then put an authentic but lower grade coin into the slab...…. These in the pic are bad enough, but what if they get a lot better?

Of course, the solution could be that the TPGs could create a rfid tag or similar to place into the slab, but then that would not be bullet proof versus copying and would require all coins to be reslabbed.

Eh, I will stick with my (mainly) unslabbed pieces. I do use TPGs for authenticity for certain coins or dates that I am overly concerned with.

 

Started with counterfeit rattler slabs back in 1989, man in CA started making fake rattler slabs and put lower graded genuine coins in them.

PCGS just announced they will be doing that (but apparently only on coins submitted with secure shield selected). Was suggested some ten years ago when the fake slabs first started appearing.

 

And how long before people learn to fake those?

Anything one person makes, another person can copy.

 

100% certain it is a genuine unplated zinc cent planchet. I stake my reputation on it.

 

I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread. This is your morgan in a bad slab thread

 

you are correct, sir. However, the same goes for this one. The Morgan is good.

 

From a recent attempted sale in CA:

 

Kudos to NGC for their fast work in editing the verification for these fakes!

 

It's really going to suck for the people who have the original authentic slabs of which the numbers have been copied and now condemned in NGC's database.

 

Yes, understand your point. My understanding is NGC will recertify and reslab the original genuine example when sent in.